Pirates sign fifth-round pick Wilson

Nice!  I watched this kid during the CWS, and I liked him a lot.  

This is a good start but I'm still hoping Alvarez, Scheppers, and Grossman sign as long as we don't way overpay just to keep the fans happy.  These signings need to be smart financial decisions as well so we don't screw ourselves in the future by increasing the standard asking price of draft picks.

You gotta wonder if this will help signing Scheppers as the two were teammates.

Since the only thing that's going to keep the fans happy is better teams, I'm perfectly OK with them spending whatever money is necessary to get the talent they need.

@WTM - They can't just spend whatever money they want to get this talent because the second they begin giving out record breaking signing bonuses is the same time they will begin pricing themselves out of the market for top draft picks.  They don't just have $150 million a year lying around to spend on their roster, so if they drastically overpay for these guys it will likely be the last time they can ever afford to obtain top draft picks.

I agree with WTM.  If we don't spend the money the big market teams will so the price tag for picks will naturally continue to escalate anyway.  The slotting system has backfired and is hindering the small markets it was meant to protect.  The only thing that will make the draft fair is to have a salary cap on draft slots.  That's it.  In the mean time, we must put up the money or suffer the consequences.  We can't compete in the FA markes so the money is better spent here.  It's show me time for the PBC FO.

I can't imagine why I should be concerned about the Pirates overspending.  I'm concerned about them spending on the wrong guys, but that's a different issue.  Spending $13M on Matt Morris was insane.  If they spent $13M on Robbie Grossman, that'd be insane, too, but there's no way on earth we're talking about that kind of money here.  Spending an extra $100K or whatever on Justin Wilson has zero chance of ever affecting the Pirates' W/L record, except to the extent that acquiring him may help at some point, which is entirely a good thing.

If Frank Coonelly is comfortable enough about spending whatever they spend on these draft picks, why should I worry about it?  Does anybody seriously believe that he lacks sufficient motivation to try to limit his expenditures as much as he can?  With a team that has a history of refusing to invest enough to be competitive, why would it even occur to anybody that they're suddenly spending like drunken sailors?  It was Coonelly's JOB for years to keep draft spending down.  If he's such a fool that he now has no clue about spending wisely in the draft, we're kinda screwed in any event, aren't we?

rilez0908-

No, they don't have $150 million a year for improvements to their roster but it won't cost them anywhere near that number to get these kids signed. Let's be realistic. For the price of one Matt Morris a year ($10), they should be able to sign Alvarez, Scheppers and possibly Gagnon (10th rounder) and have them for at least six years each. Sounds like a bargain at MLB market prices to me, how about you? Just ask yourself, would you want your ticket $$$ to go to six to ten potential players or one Joe Randa or Jeremy Burnitz? I know where I hope my cash will go.

@Admiral Bucco - I hope my money goes towards young talent that will have us winning in the end, but there is no chance we can sign any combination of Alvarez, Scheppers, and Grossman for $10 million.  Alvarez is going to command less than $10 million, but not much and Scheppers is going to cost us a pretty penny as well.  And I don't mean we'll need $150 million to sign these guys, what I mean is that we won't be able to spend $150 million for our roster period, and that includes the players on the team now as well as the money paid in signing bonuses to draft picks.  Trust me, I want this team to win as soon as possible, but we will only be hurting ourselves if we begin giving out record breaking signing bonuses.

This, my friends, is the effect of 16 years of losing on the fan base.  What other possible explanation could there be for people urging management to be fiscally responsible with draft choices.  The logic is so retarded, that I don't even know where to begin.  I have to attribute it to the beat down psyche that only this fan base knows.  

Awesome news!! Now let's get Alvy.

The big money being doled out is bonus cash, not yearly contracts. Spend the $$$ for the bonuses to lock up that talent in the system for years. When 95% of these kids do make the 25 man roster, they will be making league minimum (below $500K). To think that paying these kids slightly above slot bonuses is going to break the bank is beyond insane.

As far as spending money, the PBC just sunk around $5 million to build a state of the art facility in the Dominican Republic. Wise money spent. The MLB/Fox welfare check comes in around $20 million a year, not counting the luxury tax welfare check. I think the PBC can afford to spend their welfare cash on draftee bonus money, don't you? Why bother drafting these kids if you can't sign them?

There's no reason to expect Alvarez to get much more than $7M, if that.  Wieters, who was about as highly regarded, got $6M.  With the injury risk, it's hard to see Scheppers getting much more than late first round money, which is less than $1.5M.  Grossman was not regarded as a first round talent.  At most he gets supplemental first round money, which is about $850K to $1M.  $10M should be plenty.

Rilez,

Who in here is suggesting that we give these guys "record breaking signing bonuses"? I don't recall reading that once. Honestly, if us signing Scheppers comes down to an extra $250-$500k , who cares?! Your logic here is just beyond comprehension. We're talking about a ONE TIME bonus, after which they will be playing for the major league minimum. Scheppers has the potential to be a front-middle of the rotation starter. Do you know what those guys cost on the free agent market? About $10-$25 million dollars PER YEAR. If we don't draft them, we have to acquire them somehow. So, giving a little more money to acquire top end talent is more than worth the investment. It would cost $2.5 million tops to sign Scheppers. Spread that $2.5 million over the amount of years we would have control over him, and it's basically nothing.

Look, for once the Pirates actually attempted to draft solid, high-ceiling guys in this draft. But that won't mean jack if they just let them fall by the wayside because they don't want to spend a few extra bucks.

It is absolutely unfathomable that this fan base has been abused so badly over the past decade, that people are actually trying to justify not signing draft picks because it's going to cost us too much money. We're talking about PEANUTS here people! We're talking about an economic system where Gary "I've been waived by half of the entire league" Matthews Jr. can suck for 5 years, have one good season, and get a contract worth $10 million/year. We just cleared millions off of the payroll next year...and we all know that the money saved isn't going toward luring a good free agent here. For the love of god, if we're going to spend money somewhere....spend it where your dollar goes the furthest...THE DRAFT!

DK -

Point taken on the luxury tax. What does the revenue sharing money look like  based on years past?

@ Buc Fever - We are not talking about "peanuts" here as you suggested, this is major money and simply saying how much it costs by spreading that money out over their minor league years isn't a logical way to look at it.  If you say that now you will be saying that about draft picks every year and then it would just appear as though we are spending large sums of money every year since you would be carrying all of that money over from previous draft years.  We have a certain amount of money set aside to spend in the first year player draft, and if we spend over that amount, we will have to reallocate funds, which would likely mean we take money away from the major league roster or some other developmental area which would hurt us just as much.  So whether or not we're talking about spending a large sum of money on the team or spending a large amount of money on the draft, spending an excessive amount of money on the draft will hurt us now as well as in the future.  Teams will see the large signing bonuses we are giving out now and use that as a negotiating ploy in the future, which would force us to spend more money that we just don't have.

I am of the belief that the new management can and will spend the money necessary to put together a winning ball club, but that doesn't mean we can just spend as much as we want.  We still only have a certain amount of money coming in whether that is through our own revenue or revenue sharing.

DK - you have brought this up before.

Posters talk about Nutting(s) pocketing so much profit each season (they must since they are not spending on payroll).

What was your take on how much they really are "profiting"?

rilez0908

If the PBC continues to draft high profile players in the years to come, they will have to spend the money. Keep in mind, the bonus $$$ is the big figure, minor league contracts are very, very minor compared to MLB minimum wage. Why worry about what the PBC spends in bonuses, unless you don't want talent in our farm system. Think State College fans are happy with the level of play of the Spikes? Did you enjoy having Bay and Nady on the team? Think we could have kept them and traded for pitching with DEPTH in the minor leagues instead of ditching them to add depth in the upper levels of the minor leagues. Not drafting high end talent and spending the bonus money wisely on draft picks is what got the minor league system into the trouble they are in now.

I fully agree with you int that they need to spend money on these draft picks, but I don't agree with spending outrageous amounts.  There is no question the best way, and possibly the only way, to build this team into a competitor is through the draft, but we can't spend outrageous amounts of money in doing this.

The minor league system is in trouble because of the draft picks the former regime made, not because they didn't spend the bonus money wisely.  In fact, they didn't spend the bonus money at all since all they did was draft the safe pick.

So I am in complete agreement that they have to spend money on the draft, and I believe they will.  But I will not be alright with them spending more money than what these players will ever be worth.  It's not a matter of them being cheap, it's a matter of them being worth it.  A team in the Pirates financial situation must spend money wisely, and they can rarely afford to overpay for anyone.

Except they are in a catch-22.  Yes, they don't want to overpay, but due to public backlash - they may have to.

Public backlash should not get in the way of running a successful baseball team.  Theres a chance it may get in the way, but it shouldn't.  Yes you must keep the paying customers happy, and the paying customers want to see us sign Alvarez.  But if it's not the right move to make for the future of this organization, then the team flat out shouldn't make it.  It's not like attendance is through the roof right now, so the team should make the moves that will make them successful and competitive on a consistent basis.  By putting out a winning product, anyone that was put off by them making moves that weren't popular at the time will certainly come back to see a winning ball club, and in the end that will bring more money to the team.

I think if they could sign those 3 for $10 million they would do it in a heartbeat.  That is not overpaying, but I think that if they do not sign all of those players it will be because they are asking for significantly more than 7 for Alvarez or 2 for Scheppers.  Also, there have also been reports that Alvarez wants a major league contract for major dollars, so if they give in to that they don't have him for 500k per year for the first three.  They have to sign Him and Scheppers if it makes reasonable sense, but not at any price.

It's pretty funny to think that the Pirates, by finally after all these years paying market prices for young talent, are going to cause a sudden increase in market prices all by themselves.  There are thirty teams paying bonuses that set the market prices.  Nothing the Pirates do is going to cause a dramatic shift in bonus amounts.

Saying the Pirates have to pay what the players are worth is just a truism.  Nobody in MLB pays more for players than what they think they're worth.  If Coonelly agrees to pay Alvarez $9M, it'll be because he thought Alvarez is worth it.

Since we have no transparency as to the Income Statement of the PBC it becomes quite difficult to know with any certainty how much the Pirates should spend on players and where the money should be allocated.  

I believe that we could increase the overall operating budget by at least 15 million and still leave enough profit for ownership to feel good.

The question is why is ownership so secretive about its P&L?  Why not open the books a bit and show the fan base that it really doesn't have the money to spend if that is indeed the case?  

The public helped to finance the ballpark, wouldn't opening up the books be a nice recoprocity to give to the people of Pittsburgh?  

I believe the money is there to increase the payroll by at least 30%.  I say spend it but do so wisely.   I think ownership is afraid to show us how much they are really pocketing.

Have you ever heard of setting precedent?  By overpaying, the Pirates will set the precedent for how much money the agents will ask for their clients.  They will go in and say something along the lines of "a certain pick was given this much, and our client is better than him, so our client should be paid more."  Any agent who wouldn't do this doesn't deserve any clients at all.

Obviously one team cannot change an entire market overnight, but obviously this type of action will set the precedent and allow the draft choices to ask for higher money than they previously would have which will cause more money to be given to them.

Although overpaying for our draft picks will not affect every team, it will affect the only team that matters to those in our front office.  In the end, isn't that all that matters?

And to say nobody pays more for players than what they think they are worth, do I really need to bring up Matt Morris?

If we can't sign Alvarez, we get a use-it-or-lose-it #3 overall pick next year.  If the season ended tonight, there are four NL teams with fewer wins than the Bucs so that would - correct me if I'm wrong - give us the 9th pick overall next year.  Given all of the things working in our favor in the Alvarez negotiations this year, if we can't git 'er done then why should we have any confidence we can come to terms with #3 pick next year when we won't have those factors working for us?  Or for that matter, the #9?

This setting precendent thing doesn't fly riles.  Precedent has already been set.  Tex got 10 million a few years ago.  How many players have gotten that since?  The fact is, to draft the top players you have to pay the money.  Why is it that the Pirates are never the team to spend top money on top players.  If we would have passed on Alvarez another team would have drafted him and paid him.  Same thing happened with Porcello a couple of years ago.  How do you think the Yankees and RedSox keep their system loaded in year and year out.  It's because teams pass on players with signability issues and they fall to the Sox and Yankees who pay them.  How is this a fair system.  Given this, the precedent argument does not fly as Coonelly would have you believed.  The system is flawed and we either play by the rules of this system, until the rules are changed, or we keep drafting the Bullingtons, Moskos and JVB's of the world.  I don't know about you but if we have to pay Alvarez 8-10 million in net present value money we better do it.  In the mean time Coonelly can keep pusing for a salary cap for the draft.

I couldn't disagree with you more on how much you think we should pay Alvarez,  No way would I ever give someone a $10 million signing bonus if they haven't even taken a swing in the bigs.  Maybe the larger market teams can afford that kind of mistake, but if the Pirates pay Alvarez that kind of money and he's a bust, that sets us back a number of years because that's $10 million taken away that could have gone to locking up a proven major league player.  That's the kind of things this management can't afford and is exactly why I will guarantee Alvarez won't even come close to $10 million if he signs.

@rilez -- You seem to think the Pirates are in a market all by themselves.  Unless they draft Alvarez' exact replica next year, whatever they pay him is going to be only one out of dozens of bonuses that affect the market.  And his bonus, if they sign him, probably won't have any relevance at all to them next year because, unless they fall completely to pieces over the next six weeks, they'll be drafting 5-10 spots later.  Scheppers and Grossman won't have much relevance, either, if they sign, because they're both unusual cases in different ways.  Agents can argue all they want, but they can't force the Pirates to do anything.  If some agent expects a lesser talent to get paid what Alvarez got, then he's just doing a disservice to his client.  Since all except a very few first rounders have signed going back quite a few years, there obviously aren't many agents who are that stupid.  Even Boras usually ends up agreeing to amounts far less than his initial demands.

"No way would I ever give someone a $10 million signing bonus if they haven't even taken a swing in the bigs."

I'll bet the Rangers are glad you weren't making their decisions when Teixeira was drafted.  He was easily worth that much, both for his performance with them and the nice haul they got in trading him.

What you are saying is true, but you're overlooking what is actually going on.  Obviously the majority of players do go sign after the draft, but because of players getting over payed from year to year, we are seeing the top contracts awarded year after year getting higher and higher with the exception of a few.  So the average contract given to a first rounder is continuing to go up because teams continue to overpay just as you suggest the Pirates do.  Nobody to my knowledge has over paid for a player thus far, and obviously there are several top 10 picks left to sign, but the Pirates would be doing themselves, and the league for that matter, a great disservice by overpaying for Alvarez since it will only continue this vicious pattern.  Is this the way things should be done?  No.  Are we single handedly going to change this?  No.  But we can certainly do our part to prevent this from getting too out of hand and hope that the way things are done are changed in the near future so a small market team can actually compete without working at a break-even or slight loss, which is unacceptable in the real business world.

I for one don't mind mgmt being shrewd about the money they spend on draft picks as long as they are not avoiding talent for cash and prizes.  FC is probably at more risk of setting a bad precedent if he overspends than most because of his former job.  They seem to be in a strong position with Alvarez and I like that they are not just trying to throw panic money at their problems.  If they don't sign Alvarez, I'll wait till I see their actions with a compensatory pick in next year's draft before I pass any judgment.

A year from now we could all be talking about how smart the Pirates were for not giving in to Boras and instead signing two of the top 5 talents in 2009's stellar draft class.  If they do get Alvarez it will have been on their own terms and that is good for Pittsburgh.

This years draft is a good example of going over slot and what it means.

Scheppers is a top ten talent, but because of injury he fell to us in the second round.  It doesn't mean his skill set fell, it means the risk involved just got higher.  He is going to command more than 2nd round money, because he is better than a 2nd round talent.

If healthy he will be signed, and I would not be surprised if it is for around 2 million.  The upside is worth the risk.  We should be doing this more, and in the draft we did.  

Wes Freeman was paid along the same lines as a 5th round pick, because that is where his talent level is around at or slightly higher.  Just because he fell doesn't mean he isn't talented, he probably made it known that he wanted X amount, or he was going to go to college.  The Bucs ponied up enough to entice him to sign.

Freeman could have serious upside that we got on the cheap because we went over slot, to get the talent.  Wait 3 years the guy goes berserk in college and is a top 10 pick.  It costs 10 times the amount, for the same skill.  Granted it's a little bit less developed at this point, but it's cost effective as well.