Pirates still talking Bay deal; Paulino involved?

DK: Have you been able to confirm Ken Rosenthal's statements that Tucker and Stanton will not be a part of any deal with the Marlins/Soxl?  I would think the PBC would have to have one of these two (along with Hermidia) in order to come out "ahead" on this.

Wow Dejan, your ability to now read our minds is scary.  Thanks for answering my question as I was typing it.

did anyone see this?  wtf....

8:39am: SI.com's Jon Heyman says the Mets have "kicked around" the idea of acquiring Ian Snell from the Pirates and using him in relief for the rest of the year.  Snell is signed through 2010 with club options for '11 and '12.  It's tough to see the Bucs moving him, even in an off year.

Dejan, what have you heard about what Jon Heyman from SI is reporting: that the Mets are interested in Ian Snell?  Sounds rather "rumorish" (lol) to me.

sportsillustrated.cnn.com/.../index.html

ron_d - great minds think alike...

DK, does anyone ever tell you that you are awesome for doing this blog?

Going to be a long day of watching baseball blogs...

my enthusiasm for the Bay/Manny is now being tempered - trades like this that are publicized beforehand rarely get made....Remember that Hossa guy - he wasnt mentioned coming to Pgh and then boom, the trade was amde at 2:59 PM...............

way he is throwing...and the fact pbc way oeverpaid him...might be tempting if we can get a prospect or 2--but who in their right mind would give anythig for him?...then again we did get nady from them--but perez had higher value

The momentum that built throughout Wednesday night that Manny Ramirez could be dealt to the Marlins continued into Thursday morning. Talks are continuing, according to a source early Thursday, and indications are a deal could in fact be reached by the 4 p.m. ET non-waiver deadline.

The way the Marlins typically operate on trades, until paper work is exchanged, in their eyes there is no firm deal. So they don't really recognized "done deal" until it actually is signed off by all parties.

Since this is a three-team trade, and there are Minor League prospects involved and large sums of money changing hands, the deal is complicated. Still, the primary pieces of the deal, Manny to the Marlins, Jeremy Hermida to the Pirates and Jason Bay to the Red Sox, are in place. There is speculation that Florida pitching prospect Ryan Tucker, a 21-year-old with a 95 mph fastball, could be included. Another prospect the Marlins may have to surrender is 19-year-old outfielder Mike Stanton, the team's second round pick in 2007. Stanton is an imposing athlete with tremendous power potential.

-- Joe Frisaro

Posted on July 31, 2008 at 9:53 AM

One thing to consider is that the Rays may want this deal to go through.  Think about it, their chances to win the division undoubtedly improve if Manny leaves for Florida (even with Bay as his replacement).  I want the Bucs to make a deal, but if I'm Rays management I might be thinking that the Sox-Marlins-Bucs deal could be really good for the Rays.  No wonder they are looking elsewhere (supposedly at Dunn).

I'm a bit weary about this 3-way deal. It seems a bit complex and with the solid track records of Bos/Fla, I'd hate to get short-changed on one of our best trade chips in years. I still hope the Rays up the ante and pull the deal if their way...anyone else?

i dont like trading bay..but if you do-- tell both teams ur not doing a 3 way-- they both can offer the best they can for a straight one way with the bucs-- leverage one against the other--why should the bucs be the be bop boy in this trade-- and dont package 2 pirate players-- do not do this-we can get more if we decide to dump grabow and/or wilson

i still say they will trade doug m

Hey!  My user name has been stolen.  I am the TRUE Ghost, and I want the 3 way to go down.  If it does, and Stanton and Tucker are involved, combined with Tabata and the signing of Alvarez and others in this draft class, then our farm system has been remedied in a rather short period of time.  

Reveal your true identity, fake ghost of Chico Lind!

Open question.  Jason Bay will give the Red Sox a better chance to win than Manny Ramirez?  If that is the case then the Rays would be pushed harder to stop this deal.  Personally, if i were the Rays I would be glad Manny is gone and Bay is there.

I would think that the Rays would absolutely want to block this 3-way trade from happening.  Think of it this way:

-They are finally in contention, and Bay/Grabow could completely put them over the top

-If the minor league pieces are that vital to the organization, wouldn't they already be up?  Is there not already talent blocking their path?

-This is a chance not only to hurt the Sox (preventing them from getting Bay), but to hurt the Yankees (getting a better Pit outfielder), AND hurt the Marlins (possibliy prevent Manny from going to FLA), who have been the "Big Fish" in the state of Florida since the rays' inception.

I would rather keep Bay, Grabow, and Wilson for that matter, but, if the Bucco's could come away with (from Tampa) a starting SS to replace Wilson (Brignac), a front-line starter (Hellickson?), and add to the minor league system (the other prospects), I think that would go a long way to getting us in the right position for late 09/2010,which it seems is what NH wants to do anyways.  

Just noticed something I thought might be noteworthy:

Upon checking the stats for Ryan Tucker, I see that he was picked 34th overall, meaning he was one of those "sandwich" picks between the first and second rounds for losing players. This is exactly the reason that I'm not thrilled about Marte being traded. Those two draft picks could have been potential impact players like Tucker, instead of borderline pitching prospects.

Gammons is saying that the Marlins have acquired Arthur Rhodes. I guess they wouldn't need Grabow anymore.

To be honest, I don't see why we're all that interested in Hermida. Outfield seems to be our only position of depth, with a sickening lack of depth at middle infield and catcher. That's why the Rays trade makes more sense to me than the Sox/Marlins deal. With guys like McLouth, McCutchen, Pearce, Tabata (MAYBE Duffy), I just don't see an immediate need for another outfielder when we are so thin at other positions. We have no legit first baseman in the minors, echo that for Catcher and SS (although, we did draft two highly regarded SS prospects this year, but those guys are probably 4-5 years off).

So, unless a SS is acquired through trade, does that mean we're sticking with Jack Wilson for the foreseeable future? My thinking is that Jack is still an elite defender at SS and he could be a solid contributor on a contender. He's making around $8 million/year now, but I think we could probably resign him for less than that after his current deal expires. If we could get Jack signed for $6, maybe $7 million/year, I'd be willing to commit to him long term. What are everyone elses thoughts on maybe keeping Jack and trying to sign him for another 3-4 years?

Trading Bay at this time may be a good move for the Bucs, but I find it hard to believe that Manny will make good on his "talk".  Boston may want to get some return on Manny, but he is a 5/10 guy and it is unlikely that the Marlins would not exercise his option. This would put Manny in exactly the same situation he is in now. He wants OUT of the contract and he is more likely to get out at the end of the season with Boston not likely to exercise that option - making Manny a free agent. Without his signature the deal is dead.

Also, Tampa will probably wait until the last minute because they are in a win win situation. Either Manny leaves Boston, or they get Bay for scraps - unless NH holds firm on his asking price.

Nothing is dead just because the trade deadline passes anyway as baseball teams tend to not interfere with trade deals - so NH should not feel pressured to consumate anything unless the deal is right for our club. Here's hoping he stays firm. The "worst" thing holding off does is keep Bay in Pittsburgh and most fans don't see that as a bad move anyway. Good Luck NH.

*crosses fingers, toes and eyes*

C'mon c'mon c'mon, baby needs a new pair of shoes ...

Does anyone think that the rumored three way deal is a ploy by Boston to get the Rays to think that they will not be getting Bay?

Buc Fever: Agree on the picks that would have come with Marte.  I know they got more immediate help with the AAA guys they got from NYY, but I would have rather had a higher upside guy that would take longer to reach.  

The picks should have drove Marte's price up, and they should have kept him and kept the picks or dealt him in a solo package without Nady.  MLB won't let teams deal picks, but this is as close as you can get to dealing picks.  

Hold out for Price!  

(A fan can dream, can't he?)

@buc fever:

but those borderline pitching prospects could be studs... just wait a year before talking any more smack on that nady marte trade.

Besides from what Ive been reading the draft next year is supposed to be weaker than this year

keep wilson around...unless jackie hernandez or gene alley can still play

if we trade all these guys this team will make the lloyd "angry man" mcclendon era look like the ny yankees

Maz: I doubt it.  I think they really want Manny out of there and they are terrified that he will poison the clubhouse.  Did you see that footage of his baserunning the other night?  And that was a game that had a no hitter underway?  

ChicoLindsGhost - did not realize that I had stolen a name.  I'm new to the site and will defer to your seniority.  My bad.  Does anyone have a problem with "Dale Berra's Nose"?

Dejan,

With continued reference to these "compensation picks" that you have mentioned several times for Marte - what are the conditions that determine those picks? What I am asking is, were the picks absolutely guaranteed to be end of first round selections? Could that have changed by the end of the year based on Marte's performance?

We never really heard how those picks are defined other than "type A" free agents - what defines this type A and can a Type A drop to Type B, etc?

Mr Koonce,

I've heard the opposite in regards to next years draft class.  The context I heard it mentioned in was that Alvarez is no gaurantee to go as high as he did this year because there is more talent expected next year.  All the more reason to keep the picks.

Most scouts have projected Karstens or Ohlendorf as filler, back end rotation guys or middle relievers.  So I doubt that they change uniforms and suddenly become 'studs'.

soon to be ex- chico lind ghost

add white to that name and ur dead on

Chico,

Yep, that's my point. I understand that for every Joba Chamberlain or Ryan Tucker, there's probably 10 that fall flat on their face, but the point is that you can get some true impact talent with those sandwich picks. I really like the fact that we got Tabata, but the three pitchers are just uninspiring to me. I would have done a Nady for Tabata & one of those pitchers and kept Marte for the sandwich picks. Infusing all this years draft talent (if they actually sign any of the good ones, which still remains to be seen!) along with having 4 picks in the first 2 rounds next year would have really given us a very strong farm system. Yes, it would have been 4-5 years off, but it would have been a very strong system. Then who knows, maybe WE could have finally been the ones shipping away prospects from our heralded farm system to...gasp...ADD to our ML roster!

The only thing about the picks we would get for Marte, is that we would only get them if he was signed before Spring Training.  There is no guarentee that would have happened as teams may have not felt like giving up the required pick to get him (the pirates would get one pick from the team and a sandwich pick).   If we let him walk without trading him and he goes unsigned during the period where we get compensation, then we just let him walk for nothing.

This, along with Nady being a FA after next season and playing way over his head this year, took away from NH's leverage and played into the return we got.

Setting aside nebulous concepts like playoff experience and clubhouse presence, it's not at all clear that Manny helps the Sox more than Bay. I'm not necessarily saying that Bay is a better player - clearly not over his career - but if you look at last year and then this year to date, Bay for Manny looks an awful lot like an offensive wash* and a defensive upgrade.

Plus, of course, Manny's gone after this year and Bay isn't, but that doesn't affect the Rays' response wrt 2008 (although, do they have anyone they expect to equal Bay in the OF for 2009 either?).

* For instance, if you neutralize stats, Bay creates 124 runs to Manny's 107; OPS+ is 135 to 140, in Manny's favor - pretty much a wash.

DK,

With Rhodes going to the Fish, does this mean Grabow would be out and our return less?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

DK,

With Rhodes going to the Fish, does this mean Grabow would be out and our return less?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

DK,

With Rhodes going to the Fish, does this mean Grabow would be out and our return less?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

I dont see the OF depth that others have mentioned here....Pearce is no lock...McCutcheon's numbers dont jump off the page either and hes been caught stealing 17 times this yr at indy........They are the best we have but cmon - they arent inspiring.....

It was so hard to look at Baseball America the otehr day and see that Weiters is batting .350 and the author wondered if any pitcher can get him out on a consistent basis....And then I look at moskos' numbers and want to puke.

How about Chico Lind's Pants?  We're still not quite sure what happened to them on that fateful night.

GUARANTEE the Pirates will find some way to mess this up AGAIN!

This just in Vegas odds...  5:2

This is what I'm talking about Gtymes. There are more facets to those compensation picks than what was generally out there as 'fact'.

Buc Fever,

I heard a Brian Cashman interview where he detailed what took place.  The Bucs wanted Tabata for Nady, Cashman asked about Marte as well.  That's how the deal began.  I don;t think the Yankees would have parted with Tabata without getting both Marte and Nady.  

And I think Ohlendorf may be better than people are expecting.  He was moved from a starter to a middle relief guy to a late inning guy back to a starter by the Yankees.  That surely had an effect.  And McCutheon seems like a late bloomer, didn't start pro-ball until he was 23.

Pingback from  Sox-Pirates-Marilins Update Thursday « Yankees News

@dasboot... layoff on the trigger finger and read what Dejan has already written. Grabow would go to the sox not the fish.

DK's 10:53 update is good news, if true.

I think Manny has really angered ownership by questioning their integrity. John Henry may be thinking more with his heart than head right now, or alternatively, they simply don't care about getting 80 cents on the dollar for Manny because of all the other headaches he causes.

If so, the Buccos being in the driver's seat is fantastic. If the BoSox really want to get rid of Manny, Bay is obviously the only choice and they may be willing to cave to our demands as the deadline approaches.

Feeling better about Pirates management than at any time in years.

Oh well, this too shall pass.

I read that the Marlins got Rhodes for Gaby Hernandez...supposedly a RHP, ranked around 5th in the Marlins' system. If they give that up for an aging reliever, why can't we get fair return for a All-Star calibur OFer in/around his prime?

"...growing sense that it is the Pirates really dictating this process."

As they should be, good to hear.

With all this trade talk, particularly with the teams elite players, I would think that the PBC may as well shut down if they do not become very consistent in drafting then signing the elite talent available.

In fact I would imagine that signing Pedro Alvarez, Sheppers, and the outfielder (name escapes me) becomes top priority immediately following the deadline. If they trade Bay, then Alvarez should be the NEXT priority.

Are we gonna go into the Wieters talk again? I'm really getting tired of comparing the possible moves made today to those made by other GM's. Anyway, the truth of the matter is there are few Major League catchers worth $9M, much less an amateur having not yet played one out, but I digress...

"...10:53 a.m.: Just got off the phone with a couple people -- non-Pirates -- and there seems to be this growing sense that it is the Pirates really dictating this process. There are too many teams and too many moving parts to imagine that they are outright playing one deal off the other, but they probably are as close as they can be to doing exactly that."

Anybody else encouraged by this? That maybe, just maybe NH is a little bit smarter and more shrewd than we gave him credit for after the Nady/Marte deal?

Goody:  Marte would have been signed.  LHRPs are  too much in demand.

Even if no deal gets done, this is SO the best trade deadline ever.

Sarcastic,

I'm speaking of "depth" in a relative sense. The bottom line is, we have nothing of worth at several positions in the minors. True, none of the outfielders are a sure thing, but they are a whole lot more of a sure thing than the Paulino's, Lerud's, & Romak's of the system. The problem with this franchise has always been having glaring holes at multiple positions, while having star caliber players at others. Looking through our prospects, I honestly don't think we have any potential ML-average players at Catcher, SS, 1B (although Pearce could always be moved back to 1st). The only truly intruguing position prospects we have are Cutch, Tabata, Pearce, Walker, Negrych, & Shelby Ford....in my opinion.

It won't mean jack to have an outfield full of talent if we're overly weak in other areas.

GrahmKoonce,

Maybe you should take your own advice...

The Pirates, Boston and Florida are discussing a complex three-way trade that would send outfielder Jason Bay to the Red Sox and reliever John Grabow to EITHER the Red Sox or Marlins, depending on how the deal is configured. Manny Ramirez, Boston's disgruntled outfielder, would go to Florida, and Bay -- the most prominent outfielder available other than Ramirez -- would take his place in Boston.

More rumors and speculation ...

www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered

Just read on foxsports that Stanton and Tucker would be staying put in Miami. I sure hope that's not true because I'm tired of being teased with the idea of getting real talent in our system. Here's to hoping NH pulls off a great one!

msn.foxsports.com/.../Red-Sox,-Marlins,-Pirates-talk-three-way-trade

@gonequiet

"Even if no deal gets done, this is SO the best trade deadline ever."

Best one since Jeff King, Carlos Garcia, Jay Bell and Orlando Merced left for Craig Wilson, Abe Nunez and Joe Silva or as I like to refer to them a bag of balls, a box of 50 dunkin dounoughts munchkins and a small french fries from McDonald's

I'm wearing my Jason Bay shirt today...really hope he stays.

It's one thing to be playing the game, it's another thing entirely to close the deal - particularly when it's probably the biggest deal you'll be making as GM.

Bay is clearly the best trade piece the pirates have put on the market since Brian Giles, and it will probably be another 6 years before any of these players have that kind of history and value to the market. He better make this one count - because the cupboard will be pretty bare once Bay is gone.

Clearly this is THE trade that will define the NH era.

@dasboot... let's try not to take Ken "I like to hear myself talk more than buster olney" Rosenthal seriously... The guy is an idiot.

The Pirates should be dictating the moves in these potential deals. They are the team that has the least need to make a trade. If they can get some good quality prospects, great. If they keep Bay, that's fine too.

I don't entirely understand Tampa Bay's refusal to include one of their top pitching prospects in this trade. Sure it is great to husband excellent prospects for the future, especially pitching. On the other hand, they would have Bay for this year and next at a very good price. Bay is not a 2 month rental like most deadline trades for major players.

sarplastics you might be onto something. When is the next time that the Pirates will have a player of this much magnitude that can be available to two contending teams in need? If NH is going to build from the bottom up, this would be a move that best personifies it. And it wouldn't be out of his norm because they made a number of deals like this in Cleveland. Remember when they got Omar Minaya to give up Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew? Sizemore's a three-time All-Star, Lee started this year's midsummer classic and Phillips probably would've made the NL squad for Cincy if not for Chase Utley and Dan Uggla having fantastic seasons so far.

Grahm,

We can def agree on Ken, although I still hold him in higher regard than Buster.  Which isn't saying I hold either of them in high regard.

Any rumors on the sox prospects we are looking at?

"The Pirates should be dictating the moves in these potential deals. They are the team that has the least need to make a trade. If they can get some good quality prospects, great. If they keep Bay, that's fine too."

Great point. I'm in no hurry to get rid of Bay unless we get blown away. Bring on the prospects or try to re-sign over the winter.

If the Marlins got Rhodes from Seattle, will they still have a need for Grabow?

Looks like Ken Griffey Jr was just traded for 2 nobody's. Another sign of the times - after the Ivan Rodriquez deal yesterday...

Damn I'm getting old.

The only thing worse than NOT trading Bay is that idiot at MGP - Jeff King

silencerdu - I'm also very encouraged by this news.  If we can successfully play one team against another and drive up the price, that's the optimum result.  

I hope people don't freak out and say the Pirates "blew it" if nothing ends up happening.  We should only be moving Bay for great return.  If those teams aren't offering it, they don't get Bay.  We can hold on to him until the offseason and try again with more teams in the mix.

Looks like the Mets may be looking at snell according to rotoworld.com.  

    Ian Snell-S- Pirates Jul. 31 - 10:29 am et

Jon Heyman of SI.com reports that the Mets have "kicked around" the idea of acquiring Ian Snell and "employing him as a reliever for the remainder of the year."

With Pedro Martinez and Oliver Perez potentially leaving the rotation in the offseason, the Mets could then let Snell resume starting. Snell has struggled following a strong 2007 season, going 4-8 with a 6.04 ERA and 90/62 K/BB ratio in 21 starts.

Source: SI.com

Related: Mets

Doesnt say who we would get for him???

No updates from Dejan in almost an hour and a half. Has nothing changed or are  the teams so deep in talks that no info is coming out?

Mr. Koonce's Package:

"Best one since Jeff King, Carlos Garcia, Jay Bell and Orlando Merced left for Craig Wilson, Abe Nunez and Joe Silva or as I like to refer to them a bag of balls, a box of 50 dunkin dounoughts munchkins and a small french fries from McDonald's"

What does this even mean? Are you serious? Is it a joke? I honestly can't tell.

You know what's great besides facts? Punctuation. And having a GM who uses things like VORP, EqOBP and Defense-independent pitching statistics. And watching the clock as I reload baseball blogs at work. These things are great. The drama is great. Watching Neal Huntington single-handedly dictate to, like, four different teams in pennant races just how it's going to be is great. Looking at minor league statistics of guys the Pirates are supposedly asking for is great. Look at Jeremy Hellickson's minor league numbers. Look at Jed Lowrie's. This stuff is fantastic.

You know what's not fantastic? A poorly written, hard-to-read version of a tired old joke about Orlando Merced and a bag of Cool Ranch Doritos.

My guess, David in ATL is the deals that are usually most talked about, are the ones that don't happen.  IF this deal happens, I bet its not til 359pm................  JMHO

sorry to say guys that bay will be traded-whether for good prospects or not... ownership's bottom line is to dump salaries-- if they get good prospects great..if not..they dump salaries..willson will go too..watch and see...pbc will not win until the nut jobs sell the club..and that isn't going to happen until they let it appreciate longer...a friggin shame but as long as there is no minimum team salary in mlb its the way it is

If anyone else is watching ESPN right now, all youre seeing is Brett Favre. Rumor is, Packers offered him 20 mil to STAY RETIRED....is it just me, or is this a no-brainer?

Ought they not be covering baseball?

Gone Quiet writes

The drama is great. Watching Neal Huntington single-handedly dictate to, like, four different teams in pennant races just how it's going to be is great. Looking at minor league statistics of guys the Pirates are supposedly asking for is great. Look at Jeremy Hellickson's minor league numbers. Look at Jed Lowrie's. This stuff is fantastic.

You know what's not fantastic? A poorly written, hard-to-read version of a tired old joke about Orlando Merced and a bag of Cool Ranch Doritos.

hey mr english or mr math professor----takes it easy... if you want punctuation go look in a book... yea its"great" to look at minor league stats and that pbc is using all the latest stat analysis to build our dynasty...u know what is even "greater" --- having a good team... with proven players....and not some A or AA prospect that may be "great" b/c joe computer says he might be....funny,, when the bucs were good in the 70s or early 90s never heard about all these software modules.. how about an eye for talent..and keeping what you have that is already go

now go play with your calculator that you have on your belt

Yeah!  Forget numbers!  I want a player with good sunflower spittin' skills, some moxie, some what-have-you, and a whole lot of the thing.  Who needs stats?  What do you think this is....a profession defined by performances that can be empirically measured and quantified so as to provide good predictive tools and a framework within which to build a sustainable period of success?  Jeesh.

I really hope this trade goes down as reported.  Seeing these players go is tough in some respects, but there comes a time when fans have to adapt to the era, accept that players often change teams, and wholeheartedly buy into an effectively implemented plan that allows us to maximize our returns on players who, on their own, can not turn the franchise around but who, in the form of a trade, can be used to build an effective core.

I hope the Pirates have the good sense to simply walk away if the deal for our best outfielder isn't good enough. They have said in the past that they would trade Bay only if "blown away" by an offer. If Florida (or anyone else) has pulled its best prospects off the table, then the offer should not blow them away.

Personally, I agree with those who think Bay should be re-signed and made the centerpiece of the team. He is a very good player who has stated often his preference to remain a Pirate.

Then use part of the $10 million we won't be paying Morris next year to sign a good veteran pitcher to grow the pitching staff around. Our offense appears plenty good enough to compete.

It's you on the Favre situation.... It's 20mil over 10 years... thats 2mil a year, he can make that kind of money playing 2 more years with another team or more.  He doesn't want the money, he wants to beat the Pack at this point. It's more about getting revenge for him now.

P.S>  We're sitting quietly here in Tampa waiting for the deal to fall through. I'm hearing we already have a deal in place for Dunn and he's approved it through a local source.  Will keep you up to date on this end.....

Getting closer?  ESPN's new report on the Rays:

Rays unlikely to make any trades

Thursday, July 31, 2008 | Print Entry

Posted by Jayson Stark

It now looks as if the Rays won't make a deal of any kind between now and the deadline. According to sources who have spoken with them, they've backed off on Adam Dunn because he makes their lineup too left-handed, and they've been informed by Pittsburgh that Jason Bay is likely to go somewhere else.

The Rays and Colorado had already agreed Wednesday that they didn't have what it takes to get Brian Fuentes, if the Rockies decide to trade him at all Thursday. And that looks less likely all the time.

My belt-calculator (belculator?) spontaneously combusted last night while I was trying to compute Jed Lowrie and Mike Stanton's Combined Awesomeness-at-baseball-percentage-ratio (CAABPR).

Someone send Ron a copy of 'Moneyball', post-haste.

hope the Pirates have the good sense to simply walk away if the deal for our best outfielder isn't good enough. They have said in the past that they would trade Bay only if "blown away" by an offer. If Florida (or anyone else) has pulled its best prospects off the table, then the offer should not blow them away.

Personally, I agree with those who think Bay should be re-signed and made the centerpiece of the team. He is a very good player who has stated often his preference to remain a Pirate.

Then use part of the $10 million we won't be paying Morris next year to sign a good veteran pitcher to grow the pitching staff around. Our offense appears plenty good enough to compete.

amen ds....but that makes too much sense .... maybe we can deal with florida and get billy the marlin too

the bucs are going to be slapped in this one--write it down

but then again i'm excited about going to see altoona play

If NH were pessimistic about getting Pedro Alvarez, that would make him more likely to bend in these negotiations to move Bay, wouldn't it?  He cited Tulowitzki and Longoria as examples of players that used their draft year in the minors to set up an early entry to the majors.  If he's pessimistic about getting Alvarez, then signing Bay for $10-11M/yr. sounds like it ain't gonna happen.  That means his peak value is today.

@GoneQuiet

FYI... Definitely a joke, just like your personal life. Lay off man, we're part of the same angry mob

Good point Ron. We'll continue to build a team like back in the 70's when we were good, while the rest of the league uses these silly numbers and evaluation methods. What's 15 losing years anyways? We'll show the rest of the league how well this method works...

We trade with NY and get a retarded (special needs) baby penguin for an all-star caliber player...  What a douche move.

Move Bay Now!

wow, the ability to acquire prospects and get rid of Joggin' Ronny Paulino at the same time...amazing. Only problem is then there's nobody behind Doumit long-term if he gets hurt. Unless, of course, we move Neil Walker back to catcher (I know, I know...no soup)

if they get a fungo and 3 used balls i'd make the paulino trade----

RIP

ESPN's Peter Gammons says the three-way negotiations between the Red Sox, Marlins and Pirates are close to dead.

That according to a source close to the negotiations. FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal seems to think they're still very much on. SI.com's Jon Heyman says Ramirez has already approved a trade to the Marlins should the Red Sox complete one. If the deal is off, it's likely because the Pirates demanded too much in return for Jason Bay. There have been reports of the Red Sox trying to work with a different third team, but that figures to be tough to accomplish before 4 p.m. They still might be able to send him to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp if they want to go in that direction. Jul. 31 - 12:50 pm et

Trading away Joggin Ronny....that would be the greatest move they've made since cutting Operation Shutdown, I don't even care about any other part of the deal.

www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered

"The Pirates appear to be going all or nothing with Jason Bay, willing to walk away from their deal with the Marlins and Red Sox if their price isn’t met. While multiple sources have confirmed what I wrote last night—that the framework is in place to make this deal happen—the prospects continue to be the holdup. While the Pirates are reportedly not insisting on any specific prospect (Stanton, Tucker, etc), they have an overall return in mind and thus far, they haven’t received it. If the deal falls through, Bay will stay with the Pirates."

Buster Olney reports that Peter Gammons has reported that the Marlins keep ratcheting up *their* price for taking Manny, and as a result the deal is all but dead.

Gammons is now on the air describing Florida as "blackmailing" the Red Sox.

I think all this answers the questions about Huntington and the new regime, doesn't it? Deal or no deal (sorry, NBC) he's sticking to his guns. If the worst thing that happens is Jason Bay stays in left field for the PBC, can anyone really complain?

As for Paulino, I'd pay the Marlin's MANNY'S salary to make sure he doesn't jog onto the field at PNC again.

nh seems to be getting it on this one (rather than the bay  fiasco..by the way,, those 2 'prospects' he got really have torn it up in their debuts in indy, havent they?)--problem here is that even tho NH will most likely shut it down if he doesnt get great quality for bay i still think the nut jobs will swoop in and make him make the deal so they can dump coin

I don't think it's going to happen.  Gut feeling.

The Pirates don't need to trade Bay, and the Marlins are not going to give up what the Pirates want in terms of prospects.

meant to say nady in previous post--see last par of below from mlb.com

After all the talks the Red Sox have had with the Marlins and Pirates the last two days, could it be that Manny Ramirez winds up starting in left field for the Red Sox Friday night?

The latest news from ESPN.com's Peter Gammons: "A source close to the three-way negotiations involving Manny Ramirez says the deal is close to dead. Florida has reportedly asked Boston for a cash outlay beyond the $7 million to cover Ramirez's contract, in addition to two prospects. That essentially would add up to the Red Sox trading Ramirez, $9 million and two prospects for Jason Bay."

The Pirates could deal Bay somewhere else -- Tampa Bay has been mentioned and Jayson Stark of ESPN.com is now citing the Blue Jays -- or just hang on to him

Actually, Joggin Ronnie Paulino has been "playing" at Bradenton, not Indy...and is 1-11 so far. DH the first two games and caught 3 innings on the 3rd game. Doesn't sound like he's anything close to ready to play regular.

Never mind.

I think Fla's "and then some" is a $2 million aspirin for the headaches Manny Ramirez is going to cause them

According to Jayson Stark: "As the Red Sox, Marlins and Pirates continue to try to piece together their Manny Ramirez-Jason Bay blockbuster, the buzz around the sport is that the Pirates are still talking to other teams about Bay. The latest team to make a run is Toronto. It seems doubtful that the Blue Jays would give up the three-prospect package Pittsburgh is looking for, almost certainly starting with outfield phenom Travis Snider. But Toronto and Pittsburgh were still talking as of Thursday afternoon."

And then: "Yet another official with one of these three teams says the Manny-Bay deal is dead. In the aftermath, the teams involved seem unsure of what happened. The Pirates are blaming the Marlins. The Marlins are blaming the Pirates. And the Red Sox aren't too happy with either of them."

Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting a headache just following all of this.

If this set of deals works out well for the Bucs I think we should thank Manny for putting it into motion.  I guess there still might have been a Bay to Marlins idea but putting Manny out there raised the stakes.

On a non-baseball note--anyone notice this time is way off on these posts--my watch says it 1:45 but the last post says it went up at 6:28 pm ?

Peter Gammons is a joke due to his man-love for the Boston Red Sox. As for him saying on national TV that the Marlins are "blackmailing" the Sox, what a ridiculous statement...but not unexpected coming from his mouth. "oh no, someone might be getting a better return than my beloved Red Sox?!?! I better blast them!!" God I hate ESPN and their NY/Boston bias.

GoneQuiet,

I agree that I'd be super excited with Jed Lowrie and Stanton. Unfortunately, I haven't heard either of their names come up from anyone discussing the Pirates return on Bay. So, don't get too excited about either of those two.

Just in case JBay reads this blog, hey, it's not that we want to get rid of you, man... but this is a team on pace for a 75-87 season despite feel-good statistics like how great our offense is (which depending on what statistic you cite is anywhere from fabulous to mediocre), and without any planning for the future (IE replacements for guys like you and Jack and Freddy) thanks to Littlefield, if we don't make any moves, that's gonna seem like a high-water mark for another 16 years. So it's not personal, but it's gotta be done.

ESPN is a bunch of dolts.  Go back to seaching for America's Titletown and endless babble about how great they are.  

Dejan may not agree, but this is a lot of fun to follow!