Pirates send Bay to Boston in 3-team deal

Does Andy hit in April???

slary dump--nh probably didnt wnat to make the deal and the nut busters told him to make it--"we need more ski lifts"

Whoa.... anybody know anything on these guys?

slary dump--nh probably didnt wnat to make the deal and the nut busters told him to make it--"we need more ski lifts"

Looks like quantity over quality...ok DK, we need some word on these guys. I know LaRoche has some upside.

Do two brothers equal one full season??

Is if fair to start calling the Pirates, "AAA Pittsburgh?"

 NH is a SLIGHT improvement over DL at best. Settle in fellow Pirate fans for another 8-10 of subpar baseball. How we turned Nady, Marte, and Bay into this collection of mid ceiling prospects is laughable. And Bay and Nady had a year and 1/3 left before they were free agents. What is our pyroll now 28 million? I want to puke.  

Boo

moss www.soxprospects.com/.../moss-brandon.htm

_of/1b

hansen www.soxprospects.com/.../hansen-craig.htm--6& pitcher-throws heat

laroche-utility guy-hitting 200

morris-tommy john surgery-low 90s in a ball

the 2 dodger propsects seem to blow a bit (sorry adam)

moss www.soxprospects.com/.../moss-brandon.htm

_of/1b

hansen www.soxprospects.com/.../hansen-craig.htm--6& pitcher-throws heat

laroche-utility guy-hitting 200

morris-tommy john surgery-low 90s in a ballwww.rotowire.com/.../player.htm

the 2 dodger propsects seem to blow a bit (sorry adam)

bryan morris- 21 years old, class A with an ERA under 4. We should not be complaining about this one at all.... all four of these guys are better than what we currently have

Andy LaRoche was just over the Mendoza line this year.

Calling this team "AAA Pittsburgh" would be an insult to AAA teams. Maybe "AA Pittsburgh", because you'd have to be an alcoholic to want to watch this team.

Got some info coming right from BA:

On Morris, when asked if he was in the Dodgers top 10 prospects after coming back from Tommy Johns.

He was back on the bump during instructional league, and we got one report from the Dodgers that indicated he was up to 95. He has some things he must clean up in his delivery, but he was one of scouting director Tim Hallgren's gut-feel guys from the '06 draft, and Morris has a chance to be an impact arm.  At full health and improvement, with solid-average command, two plus pitches and a third that might be solid-average, he could be a No. 2 or 3 guy one day.

Kurkjian and Phillips just said WOW when they heard what the Pirates got....and it was a good wow.  Said Hansen can throw 97 and a former first rounder.  They loved the deal for the Pirates

How nice--a relief pitcher with an ERA over 5.5 (Hansen)--just what the doctor ordered :)

Looks like we got a few elite prospects.  Nice job NH.  Good luck J Bay

These can't be the final names just yet.  The Dodgers only give up 2 prospects for Manny?  Boston gives up Manny, probably pay some of Manny's salary, and 2 prospects just for Bay?

Does everyone who is complaining about these deals also issue NFL draft grades on the Monday after the draft?  If the deal, as reported, holds up, then I like it.  We get two guys (Morris and LaRoche) with upside and nobody in their way in the Pirates' system.  The other two guys are serviceable players who've spent a fair amount of time with the Red Sox the past two years.  To me, that means they should (should!) be able to help us out here in Pittsburgh and not end up shuffling between the big club and Indy.

Wow......Craig Hansen has done nothing for the Red Sox. He has a tremendous upside though. He was  a nasty closer in college.

No clue what to think. So LaRoche is a 3B. What does that mean for Neil Walker. Looks like Bautista's days are done.

So what does that mean for McCutchen?

Didn't we just get a high end outfielder in the other trade?

I don't know anything about the prospects, but LaRoche has good upside.  Not a good sign that the Dodgers traded him, but they'd just gotten Blake, and flipped him for Manny, so it's understandable.  Hansen strikes me as an inconsistent power arm--sometimes those guys find it, sometimes they don't.  Time will tell.  

I am surprised at the deal, because of NH's statement that he'd have to be overwhelmed to trade Bay.  Doesn't seem to a deal in that class (like the one that brought him here).  I will say that I like the approach trading guys at max value, though--I just wish they'd gotten more for them.  

Dejan, does the trade for Laroche signal that the Bucs are less optimistic about signing Alvarez?

WOW!!! From up here in Sox Country.

First, Moss had been a deal breaker for Sox trades all year. He steps right in and can play. He has power and can play either corner. He played a bit earlier this year and hit well in the clutch. He has (I think) two options left, but I doubt the Bus will use them.

Hansen has a very live arm, but wilted a bit under pressure in Boston, He could really blossom as a reliever in Pittsburgh. He can be a closer candidate and at least could be a good seventh or eighth inning arm.

LaRoche got buried by Torre. he is not a certified veteran, and those guys do not get multiple chances from Joe. He is very much worth a look.

Single A prospects are a dime a dozen, and none of us have seen much of them.

Two thimbs up for NH!!!

I think I like this trade.

Whoever said salary dump is, well, never mind.

yea--bunch of all stars--all these guys are heads and shoulders of what we have now...are u mad guy?

edy crow-i thought he was a chick-saying bay trade is good b/c he was part of the dave littlefield era--yea..that makes sense..bay-per edie-- was too calm

where do they get these guys?

salary dump

Hmmm...

I like it !

Onward We Go.....

Wow......Craig Hansen has done nothing for the Red Sox. He has a tremendous upside though. He was  a nasty closer in college.

No clue what to think. So LaRoche is a 3B. What does that mean for Neil Walker. Looks like Bautista's days are done.

So what does that mean for McCutchen?

Didn't we just get a high end outfielder in the other trade?

Best wishes to Jason Bay! He is a class individual and a classy player.

I remember being quite bummed out when another classy player (Tony Pena) was moved several years ago, yet that one turned out OK.

I doubt that this was a salary dump -- if so, the Pirates would have accepted Tampa' offer. The legacy of DL made deals like this necessary. The farm clubs are barren, and must be rebuilt.

I am so done. I have been a Pirates fan since 1960 when I was five. I have followed them all these years despite not living in (or even that close to) Pittsburgh. But I can't take it any more. To have dumped to of the best outfielders in the NL and not even gotten back ONE premier player is absolutely indefensible. INDEFENSIBLE. You know, Pirate ownership and management, if you don't have any money to play major-league players, then you can't be in the major leagues any more. I am just so sorry. I don't see how you guys can take it. I really don't.

I heard someone talking that there may be more to this, including Jack?  So much information, so many bad rumors.  I'm interested to see what all is there once the dust settles.  Looks like we have a high ceiling A level pitcher, a solid OF prospect, a power arm ("power arms" are the new "5 tool players" I guess).  And another LaRoche, whoo hasn't lived up to potential yet, but there is a lot of potential.  I'm curious what is in there for Jack if he really is part of this to L.A. and who on our 25 / 40 man gets shipped out if that is all the moves we made.

I meant "two."

Reading about these guys and hearing Phillips and Kirkjan both say "wow" in a good way, I like it. Way to go Neal.

Remember, we finally have management in place that seems to have a plan and a process. They want to rebuild, stock the system and get some high ceiling guys to build upon. If we sign Alvarez and the two pitchers from Fresno State, I am a huge fan of NH and FC.

More....the round table at baseballProspectus.com unanimously loved the trade.

Okay, Gammons is live oN ESPNNEws, to tell us what the Sawx really think of the deal.

Great Trade!

It represents a shift in thinking for the PBC.  We all know how the "old way" worked.  

A collection of several recent first-rounders with upside - exactly what they needed to get for Bay.

And why do people continue to worry about what they are going to do with Neil Walker.  The answer is nothing until he consistently hits his weight.  He's not exactly banging down the door.

Good work, Neal.  He held out until he got what he wanted.  This is considerably better than the Niemann-Brignac possibility and we didn't give up Grabow or Wilson.  Those chips can be used in the offseason if necessary.  Wilson could be traded after today's deadline, but that's a slim chance.

Gammons says the Bucs did well too... it's very rare to see all the ESPN people applauding the team that got prospects, so that's a pretty good sign.

ron d, I don't think you would just love to see Nady, Marte, and Bay stay and continue the losing.  We need 4 starting pitchers.  Not even close to a salary dump either.

We got the Dodgers 3rd basemen of the future, their no. 1 draft pick in '06 and a good bullpen arm, and an outfielder with upside.  How is that a dump?  Keep putting NH in the same class as DL and you'll soon look like a fool.

Lots of major league ready prospects and this frees up a couple million more for our draft picks/latin american farm.  Well done guys!

The Pirates received depth, but this is more of the same old song.  The Pirates are trading top-shelf players for low-impact major leaguers—two diamonds (Nady and Bay, most notably) for a bag of cubic zirconia.  I just heard Peter Gammons say the trade was good for the Bucs, but he once predicted that Kris Benson would win the Cy Young, a bit of a premature blessing from Gammons I think.  

The Pirates as an organization are finished. Having supported them for almost 20 years, I feel comfortable saying this now. We have been making "rebuilding trades" for the past ten years, failing miserably while we squander away the few talented players we have. This team is an embassment to the city of Pittsburgh and to Major League Baseball. It litreally takes effort to be as futile a club as the Pirates. Good luck to Jason Bay, he was a class act and will perform magnificently in Boston. After all of these prospects fail us, perhaps we can begin considering becoming a minor league club all together.

ESPN is reporting that Boston is paying the remainder of Manny's salary.  So, LA essentially gets Manny for free only giving up 2 prospects.  Boston gives up Manny, pays 7 million, and 2 prospects to get Bay.  Something doesn't completely add up here!

Nattyb - I know it stinks seeing our best players go, but this was probably a very good deal.  

Think about it from the outside, as much as I love J-Bay on the Buccos - he's never hit more than 35 HR, only hit .300 once, only stole more than 11 bases once, and he's coming off an absolutely  terrible year.  I think we landed as much as you can ask for in this one.  I wish him the best and I loved watching him here, he played hard and was a true gamer.  But this was very likely a great deal for the Buccos.

People who are basing this trade off of major league numbers need to chill a little.  Moss, LaRoche, and Hanson are all 24.  They're not exactly seasoned vets.  I wouldn't expect then to have huge numbers in their first major league action.  Doesn't mean they're not high end prospects.

I like the looks of the trade.  It's not fair to judge the young hitters based on their limited major league numbers.

LaRoche may be hitting .202 (in only 59ABs), but he's put up big numbers at AAA the last 2 seasons (OPS around 900 or above).  Aramis took a while to get comfortable at the big leagues -- give Andy some time.

Moss isn't quites as exciting -- quite a few Ks even at AAA but still solid numbers.

Everyone says they wanted more for Bay but what more do you people want? You got 4 young players all with high ceilings...

If they would have held onto him and this would have come out everyone would be furious that they didn't jump all over this deal.

I LOVE PITTSBURGH SPORTS FANS!!!!!

I am getting tired of people lumping this management team in with those of the last 15 years.  How do you people who are bashing the trades not distinguish between the two management groups?  

There is no way that NH and Coons should be judged on the first trades they made, not even a month in.  Clearly the path we were headed down was not a winning path, and we had NO help at all coming in the minors.  They have picked up quite a bit of young talent, and while it might not pan out, IT MIGHT TURN THIS FRANCHISE AROUND.  Even if these trades only have a 10% chance of turning this team into a winner in 3-5 years, what were our chances standing pat?  We arent going to attract any big time FA's, noone wants to come to Pittsburgh.  4 years from now when this talent matures and are close, then we can worry about adding, right now we need to build a foundation, which we certainly didnt have a week ago.

That's exactly what Ron wants; keep average players and just keep sucking. We've lost for years WITH Bay, why not at least TRY and get something for him that may turn out even better than Bay ever will be.

The only person on this team that should be considered untouchable is Nate; everyone else has been here for a couple years and were are we with them? Below 500 as usual

u guys are right--i'm wrong..we got a bunch of prospects that are middle tier for 3 high end mlbers...and none are first ratre-cant miss prospects pitchers...pitchers--as is what we need-- we are swapping high salry good ofs for low ball potential players..and do we need another 3b--i thought we drafted the next pie traynor

im aobut done with pbc-- liked thme for over 40 yrs but im close to the end

this is a slaoary dump

yea neil hummingbird.. u made a trade..yea...mcclouth must be mo foing the GM right now

All of these salary dump comments are the reason blogs sometimes get a bad name.

I'll take the word of people in the know, even espn guys, over blog opinions.  Nothing wrong with voicing our opinions, but don't act like you can properly evaluate this deal.

It looks like Moss has 5 years of service before free agency left, Andy LaRoche was a top prospect for the Dodgers, Hansen has an incredibly live arm, and Morris has good upside (even if it's far off, at least there's potential and he already has the arm surgery out of the way).  All should be in Pittsburgh for 4-6 years before they'd become free agents.

I'd say it's a very reasonable return, in my uninformed opinion.

people - do your homework before complaining so loudly! From what i've found this looks like NH was "blown away" by th edeal, hence he pulled the trigger. Just remember the previous time Bay was traded (Bay and OPerez for BGiles) - odds are good this may turn out as well, or better. And to give up on the team because they followed up on their plan to be champions - that's disgraceful, not this trade!

Any chance we can go back in time and accept that Ryan Howard for Kris Benson deal?  Man, I'll bet if we pulled that one off, people would have complained about that too.  "But we already have Brad Eldred coming up at first base!"   Ugh...

Ron D:

Actually, Laroche and Moss are minor league All-Stars.

All of these player have upside, the only question is how much.  Besides, like it or not, Jason Bay, the Pirate, will never have more trade value than he does today.  The trade was not perfect, but I think is better than the Nady/Marte trade.  These guys are all legit prospects.  No salary dump today.

The GM traded high, something Buc's fans have been wanting for years.  

In other words:  STOP WHINING!

ron d, I really wish you would be done with the PBC.  Go find another Blog to post in.  

Right, superpunk, but I think the reactions to this trade show how the Pirates’ long losing slump has damaged the psyche of baseball fans in the city.  Everyone has become so insecure that it is hard to be confident in any decision the Pirates organization makes.  There is absolutely good reason for this.  Look at what the pirates have done to us:-(

Adam and Andy ... Giving the Pirates a new approach to "We Are Family!" Looks like a great trade to me ... Here's to the future!

Dejan I caught you on ESPN Radio on the way home, good job on the reporting sir.  

As for the trade, I didn't read ALL of the above comments, but read enough to get the general dislike among this pitchfork wielding bunch, but I think this is a pretty solid group, and is definitely better then what we got for the X man.

Breaking it down by Player:

Andy LaRoche has been hurt for part of this season, which is why his numbers are mediocre, but he is very highly regarded among many people.  He is the centerpiece of the deal, and can we please cut out the "Does he hit before the All-Star Break" joke?  He projects to be a better player then his bro.

Craig Hansen is a closer in the making and is a power pitcher extraordinaire.  I read at least one place where they thought he could be converted into a starter, but could be a stud closer down the line.

Brandon Moss is a decent player who will give you maybe 60-70 percent of Bay's numbers, and was probably comparable to Nady prior to the X-Man's breakout season.

Lastly, Morris is coming off TJ surgery, but has some upside and is far enough away that the TJ surgery shouldn't be a real issue right now.

All in all, this looks like a good deal, and the type we haven't seen in this deal in decades.

Does LaRoche play second or shortstop? We now have a glut of 3B Jose Baustisa, Neil Walker, Andy LaRoche and hopefully Pedro Alvarez. And Outfielders. Moss, McCutchen, Pearce, McLouth, Nyjer Morgan, Jason Michaels and soon Jose Tabata.

I am really confused with this trade. Please someone help me to under who is going to play where.

Good job NH!

Great return for Bay alone.

You people dissing this trade are unreal.

It serves to warn me about listening to anything any of you say, ever.

I know my baseball, my prospects, and have known for 30 years.  You trade dissers wouldn't know a good trade if it bit you on the butt.

moonshine,

In addition to that, LaRoche has a BAPIP of about .200 this year. That's very unlucky, and I'd be surprised if he didn't play a lot better next year.

As you mentioned, he has about a .900 OPS in his minor-league days, which is obviously very good.

Boooooo bad trade for the Pirates, Amazing for the Dodgers and a push for the Sox.

While the Pirates get good return in Hansen, a potential good bad it Moss (WHY MORE OFs) a push in LaRoche(who should be an upgrade over Batista :D) and a A prospect who has high potential, thats a good return for Bay but compared to other names that were offered for Bay this is a bad trade for us. Even with the good return for Bay this trade makes the Pirates a worse team today and offers no promise for the future, at best we can hope Moss turns into Nady, Hansen as a setup man for capps i think the best corse of action would be to show Bay the money

I really liked the Nady/Marte Deal but this deal just saddens me,

at least Steelers season has started :)

I'm feeling good about LaRouche, minor leagues: .294/.380/.517.  The Dodgers never really gave him an opportunity with only 152 ML ABs over 2 seasons. If McLouth has taught us anything this year, its that consistent opportunity matters.

I love Hansens stuff, but worry if he'll ever have a consistent second pitch. I think Moss could be a servicable 3/4 OFers (dare I say Nady-ish prior to this awesome season).

The diamond in the rough is Morris. That sounds liek a powerful arm with a lot of strike outs. He's on a nice recovery from TJ surgery and could really start to find his location.

Jeez, nothing less than a superstar in a trade is good enough for alot of you. I see we have a bunch of Nostradamus' here. Tell me oh great psychic the winning numbers for the next Powerball drawling.

For those that are jumping off ship, good riddance....you was never a true fan of the organizatioin anyways.

For the salary dump crowd....take your family out to the games, tell a friend...you diehards sure do come out in droves. I mean when it's the novelty of the opening of a new ballpark or a playoff push. God forbid you go to a game in the regular season and God forbid you stick with your team thru thick and thin.

To those dumping on the trade return....keep whining, thats all you know how to do. You know nothing about the prospects, especially the ones that chimed in with the quickness of this entry. You know our farm sucks, but lets hang onto players now with trade value so we can suck 2, 3, 4 years down the line just so you can always live in the land of constant complaint.

You can't win a race by sitting on your backside.

Here is a nice piece of reading for all you Nostradamus' out there:

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

Wait....you guys saw these coming....how could I forget....you know everything. Duh!

I feel like a kid at Christmas. I waited all day by my computer. Finally, the Pirates have high end prospects

Rays Fan back again... WOW...WOW....WOW

Congrats to the Pirates on that deal made.  That is most definitely a steal without a doubt.  Solid 2b/3b in Laroche probably happy to be with his brother...We know Hansen well here in Tampa...Flame-thrower... Brandon Moss -potential stud..he hits bombs in BP witnessed that as well. I'm glad Friedman didn't try and compete with that, no chance. Good luck to you guys.

I understand but based on what with this management group???

DL IS GONE PEOPLE, MOVE ON AND HAVE A LITTLE FAITH.

NH is suppose to be a hardcore stats geek and meticulous in his scouting let's actually wait and see if these guys fail BEFORE we assume that they will.

THE SKY IS NOT FALLING!!!!!!

Everyone who is freaking out that we got nothing in return for trading away Jason Bay needs to relax.  Just watching Baseball Tonight Special Edition every single person on the show had nothing but good things to say about all the prospects the PBC received in the Bay deal.  

Granted I hate to see Bay go, but if he had to go then im pretty excited to see all that we got in return...

A little "meat" while we wait for Dejan and others who actually know something to chime in:

ANDY LaROCHE, 3B, Age 24

Has only played in 27 games this year, batting .217 with no serious power numbers.

BRANDON MOSS, OF, Age 24

Has split time between AAA Pawtucket and Boston this year with a .280 average in his 25 major league games

CRAIG HANSEN, RHP, Age 24

Also split time between Pawtucket and Boston this year.  Fast ball seems to have settled in at 92+, but has been higher in his brief career.  Rated as a reliever.  Has made 74 total appearances with Boston over the past few years and has a total ERA of 6.15

BRYAN MORRIS, RHP, Age 21

3.39 ERA in Class A with 70 Ks and 27 walks in 77 innings

We got 4 guys for Jason Bay.  FOUR!  Is it quantity only?  I don't know, but on the surface they look like a serious upgrade for this sorry organization.

yes we should be happy..just think of all the extra fireworks they can shoot off since they dumped salary...and we can wait another 4 to 6 yrs--hell its been 16-- why be in a hurry

u guys make the lovable loser cub fans seem like winners...just keep on giving the nut jobs and their cheap hires (see Prez/GM/Mgr) a free pass and drink that You can believe mantra--just like some other guy is doing right now

I guess if the Pens and the Steelers had done this we'd all be patient too>.. right?

Face it-- at the beginning of this trade stuff the mantra was we are going after high prospect pitchers--where are they? we dumped high paid OFs for low paying non pitchers for the most part...its pbc's mondy--but why accept the fact that the team lied--where are the cant miss prospect pitchers--i thought we' weren't going to deal these guys if we idnt get that

oh by the way goodtyme

Goodtymes wrote re: Pirates send Bay to Boston in 3-team deal

on 07-31-2008 10:33 PM

ron d, I really wish you would be done with the PBC.  Go find another Blog to post in.  

shut up before i beat you with my jason bay bobblehead

What are we going to do with all of these third basemen?  I realize this isn't like football where we won't be drafting a QB high for the next decade, and it's crazy to be worrying about too much talent when you haven't won for fifteen years.  But we clearly traded for LaRoche with the idea that he'll play now.  Same goes for drafting Alvarez (you don't pay a guy $10 million to ride the bus to Altoona for too long).

Can either of these guys, and/or Neil Walker, play another position?  

For the record, Andy Laroche was ranked by Baseball America as the Dodgers' #2 prospect coming into this season.  Hansen & Moss have too much serivce time to be ranked now, but were previously as high as #4 and #2 respectively on the Red Sox top prospect lists.  Finally, Morris's surgery probably kept him off of BA's top 10 list for the Dodgers, but I've seen several other rankings of Dodgers prospects which had him in their top 10 - and for the record he is only 21 years old.  

I'm not sure how I feel about this trade yet, but to say the Buccos didn't get any high end prospects is insane.  

For those who care about ESPN analysts, they are raving about the Pirates. All the experts say that we had the best day at the trade deadline. They think Boston overpaid big time on this deal and think LaRoche is going to flourish in an everyday role.

USE THE MONEY WE JUST FOUND AND SIGN ALVAREZ AND THE TWO FRESNO STATE PTICHING STUDS!!!

You'd think we traded Hank Aaron here. Bay was a good player with an average arm, gimpy knees. He hit 139 homers in parts of 6 seasons here - that's a respectable number, 23 per year if you assume full seasons, which they weren't - but the Say Hey Kid doesn't need to look over his shoulder yet either. For all the disgusted/finished/etc, don't let the door hit you on the way out. For everyone else, all we have here is potential. If they actually sign Alvarez and the other top picks, that's more potential. NH has amassed a ton of potential in the last week for three players soon to be gone anyhow, and, being Pirates, not HOF material in anyone's book. Ask yourself, WWDLHD (what would Dave Littlefield have done) then decide if that's what you would have preferred to this. I'll take the potential over the dregs he left us in the bigs and below any day. If they all - and I mean all - turn out to be Van Benschotens, then you can scream. But you won't know for a while, will you?

Actually Laroche has played some second base. He is quite versatile and should not be considered a third baseman only.

I am most excited about Bryan Morris, but I also have always been impressed how well Brandon Moss has played in the majors even while being put in tough situations and hustled back and forth between the bigs and triple a. He gets so little respect yet has excelled in all of his call-ups.

Bryan Morris will be a stud.

As for Hansen, that fastball is his ticket to a good career once he settles in. The Bucs really pulled a heist here for one player. A rarity indeed. I liked the Nady deal too, so I have to give NH a big high five for this.

I won't argue with anyone about this, I am not changing my belief on this. The next time I speak of this will be in two years when we can get a better gauge on what all transpired. I doubt any of you naysayers will have the courage to discuss it by then, anyway.

Ron, I thought you were done with this organization.

You're not done and you never will be because you wouldn't have anything to complain about. That's why even though you say you hate the organization and that all of us hopeful people are crazy for liking the deal you'll just keep posting because you love to complain.

Bucs naysayers, doomsayers, salary-dump proponents... cut out the end-of-the-franchise predictions.  Here are a few reasons the trades were good.  Settle down and remember just how many losses this team has had by maintaining the status quo.

Reason #1 (that these were a good trade):

The PBC were more than 100 games UNDER .500 since Jason Bay became a starter (and at least half that many under .500 with Nady and Marte in the lineup)

Reason #2:

Every pitcher garnered in these two trades are upgrades over both #1OVERALL PICKS by DL in JVB and Bullington.

Reason #3:

Come September 30, would you still be happy with the PBC being in the top 3 in the NL in runs scored and with a 72-90 record?

Reason #4:

The mind set and direction of this franchise has changed.  Remember that NH is a Mark Shapiro disciple.  And Shapiro's mantra has always been "use talent (in trades) to add more talent."

Reason #5:

While having a losing season for 16 consecutive years is nearly unbearable, does anyone see--REALLY SEE--the current PBC starting pitchers in the majors AND pitching prospects in the minors contributing to a winning season in 2009 or 2010?  Be honest with yourselves... way too little talent and way too many "ifs" in the organization's pitching depth.

Today, I do not like this deal. We know whqt we are getting in three of the players:

LaRoche - could not displace Blake Dewitt playing in AA before being called up and Dewitt is having only a mediocre year.

Moss - a 4th outfielder with limited power and speed numbers in both Boston and Pawtucket

Hansen - probably looking at him as a late inning guy or closer, but no signs of being able to do anything in three years in Boston. Imposing stature but in 2008 in Boston, 23 BBs in about 30 IPs. Not impressive.

Morris - He is the sleeper, but he was pitching in Low A this year at Great Falls. In my opinion, he is the only one that could eventually become an impact contributor as a starter, but no sooner than 2010 or 2011.

THE BIG WINNERS - Jason Bay and the Red Sox. Jason should thrive in LF at Fenway, and if he finishes 2008 strong, he's going to get a very nice contract. I think that Red Sox fans might grow to appreciate his low-key, nice guy, ruffle-no-feathers, play-the-game-right approach.

And, of course, Boston unloads the big headache

Do I get a refund for the difference between minor league season tickets and what I paid this season?

WWDLHD - don't remind me; at this time last year we were dealing with the Matt Morris acquisition! And i don't understand everyone wondering "what are we going to do with all the 3B?" As the top teams have proved, you can nener have enough good players in the system, and pls, never mind things such as "what we do with Bautista now?" Really, c'mon.

It is simple.  If you don't like the return on this trade then you simply didn't want to see Bay go.  NH pulled off a huge coup.  He got 4 big time prospects for one player.  There is no legitimate argument that can be made that the Pirates did not get incredible value.  Want to argue they shouldn't have traded him at all fine...a different argument.  But the value is flat out excellent.  

I am disappointed that the Florida aspect of this trade fell through --- only because I knew more about the prospects offered for Bay.

Bay was a good player for the Pirates -- and will be missed -- no question.  But he was not the player to take this mediocure team, put it on his back and carry it back to respectability.  Hopefully, one of these four guys is.

I would be hard pressed to say which one of these four prospects is the  'big dog' in the deal.  Any ideas ....?

Nady gone

Marte gone

Bay gone

Someone tell me how this has bolstered our rotation.  Depth maybe, but for those 3 guys, I would have liked to have seen someone who at least projects to a #2 starter.    Boston thought Moss wasn't ready to replace Manny, let's hope he is ready to replace Bay.  

Adam LaRoche

Andy LaRoche

Maybe Dave can join our rotation.

The Pirates turned one (mostly) healthy year from X, a lefty specialist (Marte never was a closer, despite of some of the national reports) and a very good left fielder into 8 players, at least three or four of whom have very high ceilings (Laroche, Tabata, Hansen at least, maybe Moss and Morris down the line).

This is exactly the kind of deal we have to make if we're going to be competitive long term. The combination will end up being seen like the Pena and Giles trades - tough at the time, huge help long term. At least I hope!

I strongly believe that Bay should have been traded; however, we may have gotten one impact prospect in return --- Bryan Morris --- but we won't kmow for a year or two.

Pirates fans the prospects you got back from Boston youll like them. Brandon Moss if he plays everyday will be a 20-30 HR guy. he'll prob hit 70-80 RBI a year. and hit somewhere .270 - .280 for you. Hansen could be a steal if he ever finds his slider. his fast  ball sits at 96-98MPH  but again if he finds his slider he will be your closer of the future. at lot of AL Scouts seem to think that Hansen was born to pitch in  the NL  

 Cave -- I don't know about Moss replacing J-Bay, but I think that Steve Pierce deserves a shot at that, and may be Michaels.

From baseball prospectus roundtable...

Joe Sheehan (2:41:43 PM PT): Todd (Pittsburgh): Neal Huntington turns an all-star, a glorified platoon OF having a career year and a situational reliever into 8 young players, 6 of whom are pretty much ready to go, only a couple with real all-star potential. Gut reaction on how he did?

Very well. Because the Pirates have a decent record, it's easy to miss just how lousy their talent is. The pitchers they've acquired from the Yankees and Red Sox really could all be on their staff right now, upgrading it immediately. LaRoche will be their best player as soon as a year from now, and Tabata is the first high-upside Pirate prospect in forever.

Given the nature of the trade market, how players are valued these days, this is very good. Today was for the Pirates what 7/31/07 was for the Rangers.

Morris will be viewed as the "big dog".  Only 21, a first rounder and 4 solid pitches.  But Hansen and Moss could turn out to be big as well.  Hansen throws in the high 90's and Moss has 20 hr and 40 double potential.  LaRoche is the "runt" of this litter but is still a legit prospect who has a high upside as well

Too many good 3B and outfield prospects?  My isn't that a change!  A good problem to have.  Can you say trade bait?

This will be the last thing I write about that historical figure known as Dave Littlefield:  Neal H has probably (time will tell) made more good moves in less than one year than Dave L made in total.  As a bonus, Neal H still, repeat still, has a long way to go before matching Dave L. in blatently boneheaded moves.

Happy to be a Buc's fan (for a change)!

Boston loved Moss.  You will hear that in the next couple of days.  Of course he wan't good enough to replace Manny, no one is.  He is one of the best hitters of all time.

Why are we getting more OF?? and more 3B?? Maybe Andy Laroche is the excuse they needed to not sign alvarez.. i hope not but i hate this trade it does not make sense to to get more depth in the 2 areas you already have some depth in when all the other positions are paper thin...

n yea a realiever with a 6 ERA he will fit right in

TERRIBLE

NH did exactly what need to be done:

Get great value for players that were sure to not be here after '09.

We got 8 players that are all better than what we had in the minors, except for McCutcheon (possibly Pearce too)  

What's not to like about the new regime?  

Plus they had a decent draft, once Alvarez signs (and Scheppers, if healthy).

We had no chance to compete in the short or long-term if we didn't make some moves.  Free Agency was out of the questions.  Maybe in few years, now, it won't be.

I'm thrilled to see management make some bold, intelligent moves, for once.

i'll put in my vote supporting the trade, based on this thought: Bay is exactly the kind of player that most small-to-mid market teams out of contention end up trading, so don't do this whole "the pirates are dumping salary and never keep anyone" blah blah blah. Really? I mean, really? This s a new ownership group. New GM. What precedent are you going on with this group? If I dated five girls that treated me terribly, and the sixth comes along, do I tell her without being prompted that she treats me terribly, just because the others did? Of course not. Give it a chance.

The other side is that we now have many more prospects that are exactly that- prospects. Before this trade deadline, we were rife with minor league players, but not many prospects. Many of the guys we got I've heard being talked about for a couple years in very positive, glowing terms. And, as DK often points out, their natural position should have little to do with us needing to get them. The minors were barren with talent. The Bucs needed talent, in general. These guys have talent with at least some potential.

yea--i'll still go to games-- my kid likes it and i like to watch the good players on the other teams-and the 5 or 6 we still have left

the truth will eventually come out--probably after neil hummingbird is fired in about 4 yrs --after another 70-92 season--he didnt want to pull the trigger on either of these deals-- the nut jobs did--

pbc is not done yet o yee faithful-- wilson and some other vets will magically clear waivers here by the end of august (see more salary dump)

i already have a slogan for the 2009 ticket campaign--

Yea We Still Suck... But We Have More Mediocre Prospects!!!

This is really phenomenal return on Bay alone. If Andy LaRoche's past performance is any indication, He's a fine bet to replace Bay's numbers all by himself. Great plate discipline, great developing power. Look at his minor league OBP. He's off the damn charts.

Moss gets on base a ton, too, and looks to hit for decent average. Scouting report says he's got a great arm, too. Converted infielder.

Hansen throws gas, changes speeds, has a good hook, strikes out a ton of guys. Notice a trend of stockpiling power arms here?

Morris was hurt all last year, but the K:BB numbers aren't bad, and they look to be improving.

I know this is a fan blog but c-mon Jerm.  Good teams do not, I repeat DO NOT worry about having too many prospects at one position or having a player blocked.  Dejan has said this so many times it must drive him crazy.  For the first time since Syd Thrift was here the Pirates are acting like they want to be a good team.  You stockpile talent and them use it later.  Don't think like a fan.  Think like a GM.  When fans run professional teams they are usually losers.

Guys, this is a very good trade for the Bucs.  I'm a Red Sox fan who lives in the area and roots for the Bucs as my local NL team.  Bay is a solid player, but this is a good return from the Sox side.  Moss is a solid player who can play OF or 1B.  He hit the clutch HR in Japan off H. Street in the 9th to tie the game.  And Hansen may be the key to the deal.  He has great stuff, I just think he needs a smaller market and less pressure to finally put it together.  He's closer material if/when he does.  He's a Boras guy, though (otherwise he would have been a top 5 pick in the 2005 draft).  When he signed with the Sox, he had a MLB deal and was on the 40 man roster, so keep that in mind....

LaRoche was a top 3B prospect for the Dodgers.  His stock may have slipped a bit, but he's worth a shot.  

The Sox gave up Manny, Moss, and Hansen for Bay.  Wow, think they wanted to get rid of the cancer in their clubhouse?  Manny is an idiot - good riddance.  

Pitchfork makers and torch salesmen have made some good money over the last seven days

GoneQuiet wrote re: Pirates send Bay to Boston in 3-team deal

on 07-31-2008 11:19 PM

If Andy LaRoche's past performance is any indication, He's a fine bet to replace Bay's numbers all by himself

You have to be kidding...say you were please-- is that you Adam?

I just wanted to say thanks to Jason Bay - in my opinion he has always been a classy person who has done a lot without much help.  I am glad he is going to a contender and hopefully he will prove all those Red Sox fans wrong by producing for them (check out what their fans are saying - not very kind towards Jason).

The players we have been getting are not bad - give some time - anybody remember who we got for Ramirez - I think a few of these guys will actually be players for us.  This was no salary dump - this was taking advantage of skilled players having good years - not overvaluing mediocre players as untouchable like what has been done in the past (Snell, Gorzellany were untouchable last year, Duke the year before - anybody here wish we had made those trades?).

I do not think having too many players at the corner IF positions and in the OF is a bad thing.  So what if Walker, Alvarez, and LaRoche all blossom and have to fight over two positions (1B and 3B), and we have a crowded OF with McCutchen, Pearce, McLouth, Moss, and Tabata.  If all 8 of these players pan out, and they most likely wont, but if they do, suddenly you have the flexibility to go out and trade these guys to fill the rest of your holes.  

When your organization is as barren on talent as the Pirates were, you gotta just go out and pick up as much talent as you can, positions be darned, and if they all developed and you dont have room for them all, is that really much of a problem to have?  

It's called Depth.  Foreign Word (maybe even a curse word?) for Pirates fans lately, but much needed.

This is a really really good move for the Pirates.  I'm a sox die-hard, and think the Bucs made out pretty darn well.

Hansen is a closer in waiting, he was pushed a little fast here, but his his slider and fastball are ++

Moss is a everyday outfielder, no doubt, think the season McLouth is having for about the next 10 years, makes great contact.

Laroche is a stud prospect. the Dodgers, mishandled and ruined this kid, pop him in the lineup give him 500 abs and you guys will be psyched.

don't know much about the Pitcher but his peripherials look solid.

Ron D:

Sure-fire can't miss pitchers are drafted, not traded.  Ever!  

A lot of the posters are questioning the pick-up of LaRoche with Neil Walker already in the system and Alvarez possibly yet to sign. Seems something we don't need to worry about right now. If two of these 3B guys develop into major leaguers, is that a bad thing? Trade one of them somewhere down the road. It's not like today is the last trade the Pirates are ever going to make.

SeanE i know that its not a bad thing to have alot of good prospects at one position but when you have nothing at all in every other position you cannot be a good team.. so yea good teams do not worry about having too many good prospects at one position but we are not a good team

Way way too soon to jump to any conclusion on this trade, but consider this: Nady has been injured a lot in his career, and though Bay is recovering nicely after his horrendous year last year, still is not an All-Star outfielder defensively. I would sooner wait and see what happens AFTER the dust settles rather than stirring up more. For the non-fans who say this is a terrible deal, I think the ESPN folks may just know a little more than us casual "experts" The fact is we seem to have gotten as much as we could or ever would fro Nady/Marte/Bay. Let's give the new Buccos a chance before we tar and feather them.

Where have you gone, Bobby Hill.  How we miss you...

I LOVE this trade, and this coming from a DIE HARD Bay/Bucs fan.  I do, I truly do hate to see him go, but, what we have now, is a team with a definite future...

Let's face it - we aren't winning this year.  We weren't going to win next year, and things were looking bleak beyond that.  By 2010, Nady, Marte, and Bay would have all been gone, and there is no guarantee that their trade value would have been this high at this time next year.

So, what do we have in return?

5 new pitchers, some with the potential to shoot up to #2/3 rotation guys, 2 solid outfielders, and a solid 3B player.  

Moss sounds like a solid replacement for Nady.  Hansen sounds like a solid replacement for Marte, both for the 2009 Buccos.  Granted you cannot replace what Bay means to this organization, wouldn't you trade him for 3 decent pitchers, an OF with a hugh upside, and a solid replacement for Joey-I totally s*#k-Bautista?  

I don't view this as a salary dump at all, but as a potentially PR disaster for NH, Coons & the rest of the gang.  How to combat that?  Within a few days we see Alvarez and those two Fresno St. pitchers signed (Scheppers and I cannot remember the other one).  Strong possibility that one of those could turn into the #1 and/or the #2 we've been seeking.  If that happens, we'll all think differently of the PBC.

These trades were made for the 2009/2010 season in mind, which, if we kept Bay, Nady, and Marte, would have been a disasterous season anyways.  Now, at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel, something Buc's fans haven't had in a LOOOOOONG time.  yes, it's another 2 years of loosing, but we would've had that anyways.....

LET'S GO BUCS!!!!

Ron D,

And you just proved my point with your last entry. All negative all the time. I betcha you only go to games that give out awesome bobbleheads. WOOHOO! And firework night 5643 is a must. You know why this organization has so many firework nights and stupid gimmick pomotions? It's because the fans don't show up otherwise. Well unless the Yankees come to the Burgh for the first time in decades....or that roid freak gave you a chance to catch history....

.....And history shows Bucco fans don't show up unless there is something of novelty going on or they are in the playoffs. Look it up....it is all factual.

On a regular baseball note....Do you think Jack Wilson's glove alone deserves $6,650,000 this season and $7,250,000 next?

Dejan,

I hope you can provide a full, behind-the-scenes look at what went on in the war room the last few hours before the trade deadline. From what I was reading (and mostly from your blog, not ESPN, SI, or BP) it sounds like NH and team considered at least 4-5 potential, legitimate trades in that period. The work involved in being able to evaluate everything proposed (and it sounding like they controlled most of those deals) sounds like great reading. Can you enlighten us further. All in all, I think today has shown great work from NH. Thanks!

This should put the NH to DL comparisons to bed.  NH = Sid Thrift!

@ ron d:

Dude, why don't you crack open another IC Light, and relax?

If you think Nady was a top-tier outfielder, maybe you shouldn't crack another one, after all...

Is Ron D the only one repeatedly bashing this trade? That's what it looks like.

Ron,

I understand the frustration with losing all these years.  But you can't be serious?? We lose close to 100 games every year with Jason Bay.  You honestly must have no knowledge about how a team of our market must work.  If we hold on to Jason Bay and Nady, we would have lost another 5 years.  When you arent winning with your stars, you have to trade them for youth.  And we got very good players.

Without even mentioning anyone else, Laroche is one of the best prospects in baseball.  He will immediately be our #2 prospect if not 1.  Everyone seems to be a little down on him, maybe cuz people dislike Adam Laroche??

And then Morris is a tremendous talent, and a first round pick (26th overall) by the Dodgers in 2006.  He could very well be a top of the rotation horse down the line.

Moss has good upside and will get a chance to take over in left right away, and Hanson has a huge arm (97 mph fastball) and is a back of the bullpen/starter kind of guy.

So, all this for 1.3 years of Jason Bay, and pretty much 1 season since this year is gone.  How in the world is that not a good trade???

Neil Walker should pull a duff and quit

So far, I like this trade. I need to get more perspective, but consider this:

I'm listening to Brian Sabean on local radio. He's talking about the "pieces" that the Giants need to get better: as in, they didn't trade Bengie Molina, Rich Aurillia, etc. He actually thinks a little tinkering will get them better.

Thank goodness he's not the Pirates GM!

In the midst of losing seasons (although for differing reasons), the Giants were content to stand still while the Bucs brass had the guts to sell high on their better players. Both teams have sizable issues. One of them took steps towards overhauling their organization and capitalizing on return for talent. The other is sitting with a bunch of overpriced, inefficient veterans and young semi-talent. And Jose Castillo starting at third. While the Giants have Cain and Lincecum, their trajectory is downward over the next several years. And they don't seem to know it.

NH seemed to be chanelling Billy Beane on this. Not saying that Billy Beane would have gone with this exact trade, but it is exactly the model he used for the Swisher, Haren, Harden, Blanton trades: A's players at their peak for young talent in volume. Good stuff.

"Sure-fire can't miss pitchers are drafted, not traded.  Ever! "

Scott Kazmir says hello, same does Edinson Volquez and Johan Santana....and the list goes on and on.  That is via trades. Drafting wise....there is no such thing as a sure thing coming out of the draft until one performs on the big league level. And small sample sizes upstairs can burn you both ways(see Shane Spencer).

Take a look at the late 80's Braves young gun pitching staff....you guys would have wanted to throw Glavine, Smoltz and Avery(injury cost him a fine career) in the trash after the small sample size they put up early. Same with Maddux early on in his career. Some players come out the gate fast, some take time to develop....the latter is the norm.

Patience is virtue....Oh schucks.....here comes that it's been 16 years response. Here is a little food for thought. That little consecutive losing season record will give you some extra fuel for your fire....but remember, the Phillies put up one winning season in 31 years from 1918 to 1948. Worst ran ownership group/front office ever? Keep tooting that horn.

Though I enjoyed Jason Bay's playing. Need I remind you he didn't play much like an all-star last year after the break. In fact alot of fans were booing Jason Bay.

I am sad he's leaving, but hopefully this got us some good players for the future.

Where were we going with Bay at LF. Everytime an injury came up, we didn't have a replacement. Look at the shuffling of the SP this year, JVB, Ty Taub, Bullington and we had to bring someone from AA Yoslan Herrara. When Jack Wilson went down, we brought up Bixler who struggled mightily both offensively and Defensively (though management still feels highly about him .. wonder with the trade whether that sentiment still exists)

Sanchez has not performed well this year though is playing better now than at beginning of year. how long before the shoulder goes again?

*If* we can't sign Alvarez, do you really like Jose Bautista that much? Neil Walker isn't hitting his weight in AAA.

Getting some more quality players would help.

So Far, NH has done fairly well getting pieces for this club(some of them outright steals)

D. Bautista

Tyler Yates

Jason Michaels

Doug M

All contributing in some way or factor.

It looks like NH has the idea on how to build this club and getting the right pieces. Some players are for right now, some for the future. Give him a chance to make an impact or dig his grave.

well put, steve

Everyone on ESPN that has ventured an opinion of the trade from the Pirates perspective is that the can't believe what Boston gave up to make this happen.  Their desperation to move Ramirez was used by NH to Pittsburgh's benefit.  I'm going to miss Jason Bay.  

But the cupboard was so bare we did not have the luxury of keeping him.  Yet, by all indications, NH was willing to walk away from the table right up to the last minute.  We've got a winner in the front office, IMO, regardless of how the individual players in this deal work out.  There's a reason they call them prospects and not guaranteed future stars.

WHOA!!! Slow down, everyone, especially the doom-and-gloom naysayers. When you trade for multiple prospects, as the Pirates did this month, you can't evaluate the deals in 15 seconds. Give it a little time, folks.

For example, anyone here IMMEDIATELY (as you all have done today) leap up and declare what a GREAT trade the following were for the Buccos (and they all WERE great trades, but hardly seemed so right away):

Tony Pena to the Cardinals for Mike Dunne, Andy Van Slyke and Mike LaValliere

Ricardo Rincon for Brian Giles

Brian Giles for Jason Bay and Oliver Perez

There are plenty of other examples, but the point is to stop SCREAMING IN OUR FACES about how dumb management is and how we'd all be so much better off if only YOU were running the team.

Stop and consider what we lost, which does make us at the MOMENT a worse team (but not by all that much, considering how horrid our pitching staff has been and the immediate influx of help we just got in that regard): Bay, Nady and Marte. OK, Bay is a major hit and loss. But Nady has been very injury-prone and as a Scott Boras client was VERY likely to leave the Bucs. Marte was gone after this season as well. So losing those 2 isn't anything remotely close to the disaster scenario painted by naysayers here.

What did we get back? What EIGHT players, all of whom have or have had high regard for their potential? Several pitchers we DESPERATELY need RIGHT NOW (JVB and Herrera, anyone?) and several decent players in Moss and Hansen and LaRoche that can immediately play for us. Now do the math: If only TWO of that entire bunch turn into solid, everyday players, we made out fine. Why? Because we really only lose Bay.

It is way too early to make projections, and yes it may turn out that they all stink, but it was a gamble with tremendous upside and the ONLY way a disastrous Pirates farm system, by far the worst on EARTH, is going to start turning it around.

So give it time, friends. I think we did a great job of packaging 3 overrated players (Bay, too -- sorry) at their maximum moment of value. That is a lot better than just dumping guys for nothing (Ramirez and Lofton for nothing, etc.) or just releasing promising players like Jose Castillo and getting literally nothing.

Give the management some time on this before rushing to the nearest tree with a rope. Sheeeeesh.

We wanted a pitching staff as good as our hitting, so we traded away our best hitters. HUH?

The Bucs have been set back another 3 to 5 years.

Like trading Bonilla and Bonds for pitching during their prime.

I am growing into an old man while waiting on the Pirates to return.

Way to go Succos!  Knew you would mess this up....

This is the hockey equivlanet of a superstar for a bag of pucks - used ones to boot!

Tommy John might have actually pitched for 13 years after he had Tommy John surgery, but that was because he actually was a decent pitcher.  We just got junk.

That's why my sports dollars go to the mid-town team and not this excuse of a major league team in an excuse of a major league sport.

LET'S GO PENS!

Oh yeah...forgot...when the Pirates suck the next 3-5 years what talent will we trade then?  Oh that's right, there's none left!  Jack Wilson?  Please!  Who the heck would want him...good guy or not...he's done nothing since his one good year.  : (

Let's take a deep breath. My 9 year old son cried when we traded Giles for Bay. Now, my 14 old son is really upset we traded Bay. I told him how well the Giles trade worked...we got Bay and Perez....in turn we got Nady for Perez....now we have 4 players for Bay and 4 for Nady....so 8 nplayers for Giles; pretty good. Another thing, if anybody watched Zach Duke last nite you know we need help. And finally, I know many Cowboy fans were upset when they traded Herschel Walker for a bunch of draft picks and that worked out real well. We will miss Jason, but we had to a least try and get better.

At least for Bay they got some prospects.  But the three that have been in the majors two have failed and Moss can't come close to Bay in power and OBP.  This is a sad day for 2008 and 2009.  We'll have to see about 2010.  Until the All-Star break the Pirates were fun to watch because they could score a lot of runs.  With Nagy, Bay and LaRoche gone (don't know when he'll be back) the Pirates now are more like the A's and Nats in offense, and with the worst starters in the majors  with the 2nd worst ERA overall.

A couple of thoughts.

The players the Pirates acquired are mostly major league ready or AAA. That means we did little to fill the lower or middle rungs of the system though 2 of the better potential guys fall in these categories.

The Pirates got 8 players this year via deadline trades. Are they going to have anyone to trade next year to help bring in prospects? Probably not of the caliber of Bay or Nady (meaning nearing free agency and quality players). This was NH's big chance outside of the draft to bolster the system significantly.

Given the players acquired, I think the Pirates have a better chance of reaching .500 in the next couple of years than if they had kept Bay and Nady. Still may not be a good chance given the pitching, but a better chance.

For the next couple of years at least, the Pirates will need to rely almost exclusively on the draft to fill gaps throughout the system and to build considerable depth at the lower levels. Given that, I hope they do a great job of signing their remaining draftees by the 8/15 deadline.

To all the people saying, why do we need another high-end outfielder when we have so-and-so:

It's all about depth, folks. That's what the Pirates don't have. They don't have depth in quality bats. They don't have depth in quality arms. They don't have quality depth at you name the position.

By making a deal like this, they're adding to the depth of the organization and the competition among players.

Maybe now, Andrew McCutcheon won't think he's so untouchable and will be motivated again to prove himself.

Maybe now, Neil Walker senses the urgency of getting quality at-bats and providing the power numbers it was said he had the potential to provide.

Maybe now, Brad Lincoln can be developed at a normal pace and they don't have to rush him because there is no one else.

On and on and on.

Whether or not the players pan out is irrelevant, IMHO. It's a good deal for the Pirates because they did what they needed to do. If the players pan out, it's a great deal.

Wonder how many of the people complaining about the trade here blew a gasket when the Pirates traded Brian Giles a consistent .290/30 HR LF for a lousy LF with a .250 lifetime MLB average and a pitcher who imploded and walked about 8 guys in the game against us just before he got traded.

Now people are blowing a gasket since that former .250 hitter is being traded for young guys who have better stats than he did when he first came up?

My point? Small sample sizes and inexperience don't mean much. Fact is that Moss and LaRoche are young AND have very good minor league numbers across every level. In fact, Moss' minor league numbers are similar to Bay's, except with more power. And LaRoche has had A LOT more power across the minors than Bay.

The fact that so many people are coming in here with really well written, rational examples of why this is a good trade and yet a handful of people have really sarcastic comments shouldn't surprise me...and I guess I shouldn't be wasting my time trying to convince anyone otherwise.

My only disappointments with this trade (aside from the fact that Bay has to go...and to the Queen of ESPN/Fox, no less) are that we didn't get more pitching and we kinda lumped up on OFs. But NH said all along that he was going for maximum talent at any position and I agree that it was better to get the talent first, then decide what you're going to do with it.

And the whole thing with playing divisional teams off against each other and then doing a 3-team trade to maximize the return... brilliant stuff.

The Pirates had a chance to be entertaining but losing, like this year, because they had a great offense and the worst starting pitching in recent history.  They chose to be simply horrible the next 1 1/3 seasons while these prospects develop.  By 2010 we'll know how these trades worked out.  

I think an interesting dynamic is the thought of Adam and Andy playing together. They'll both be comfortable and maybe Andy will come into his own (and maybe Adam will hit better to start the season) And no, i have no facts to support this thought, but it seems like that aspect couldn't hurt. As for the trade, we pull in 4 guys...for Bay. From the sound of it, 4 QUALITY guys. Do we still need pitching? Sure. But we can't FORCE teams to give us their pitching. And we can wait for the end of the world, it doesn't mean Bay will ever bring pitching help. It'd be nice, but I like this return. Shows NH's patience and hopefully his ability to evaluate talent. I think we got solid return at a prime time to trade Bay. And one last note, I wish Jason nothing but the best. About time he can play for a contender, even if he may see some of his homers turn into doubles with the monster. No matter, if he comes to Baltimore I might even fork out some money to see him and the Sox beat the Orioles. (It's all i have not being close enough to Pitt)

As with all trades like this it really is a crapshoot. Sometimes a guy gets stagnant and loses interest one place, gets traded and gets motivated at another. Let's hope that is the case. La Roche is an upgrade at 3rd. Moss may be a good replacement for Bay and I have a feeling he'll be one of those guys who blossoms with having an everyday job in left. Hansen is an upgrade over Osoria and Morris is too far away to get excited about. Tons of good young arms in the minors who never pan out. Only time will tell if this was a good trade, but I applaud NH for the effort.  Now the pressure is on ownership to spend some cash to keep improving this team. We traded the pieces we could, got a decent return, but we need more pieces than castoffs from other teams. If we join the free agent market in the off season we could be off to a good rebuilding effort. If not then it does become just a salary dump.

Listened to ESPN Radio's all day coverage of the deadline and noticed that Jason Stark was consistently updating that the Pirates would deal Bay, but he wasn't sure where.  Am I the only one who gets the feeling that Bay was going to be dealt yesterday no matter what ? Can't a 7 million dollar run producer be traded in the off season when guys like Texeira are going to make +20 Million in Free Agency.  Per usual we receive four players that their respective teams are willing to part with. Laroche fell out of favor in LA, hence the Blake pick up, Moss was liked but always considered a 4th or 5th outfielder in Boston and Hansen seems to be viewed as a power arm but a head case that is out of options. Morris looks to have some upside but who knows.  You lose leverage when teams know you are going to deal someone and yesterday I believe everybody knew Bay was going to get traded.  If the Red Sox were not so hell bent on getting rid of Manny we might have even received less. I can't believe how many Pirate fans liked

this deal. At least we now know we are an Oakland or a Florida and will never be a Milwaukee. Helps to know what your dealing with. Huntington's drafts will make or break this organization because I don't think we will ever receive prime prospects in trades, when teams know you are dealing your free agent to be players no matter what. Oh God, why couldn't Stanley Drunkenmiller have been a Pirates fan ?

Pingback from  gushing

Pingback from  gushing