Pirates, Red Sox, Marlins talk 3-way

Two elite prospects and Hermida.  If Hunnignton can pull that off I would be surprised.  Hermida would be a perfect fit at PNC.  He is also only 24 and has a big upside......and, of course, he is cheap.

Guess Dejan will be on solid food for a while. A THREE-WAY PACKAGE deal would mean no soup for the rest of the season at least, wouldn't it?

As long as Manny doesn't even fly through Pittsburgh as part of the deal, I guess it's worth considering.

Ok, ok, Hermida and prospects...I've heard Wilson mentioned in these as well...any truth there? Also, any idea of which system the prospects would be coming from? Perhaps an eltie from each system or something like that?

Dejan, you mentioned in an earlier post that a Marlins source had doused the flames on the 3-way.

Has something changed or was that source talking out of turn?

Hi Dejan,

I just read on Rotoworld.com that the Bosox have been seeking Hermida from the Marlins.  Is it possible that he would go to Boston instead of the Bucs via this 3-way trade?  Perhaps the Bucs would only receive the prospects?

I'd like to see us acquire Hermida, though, since he is so young. He seems to have some potential in both average and power.

I'm assuming he is a corner outfielder.  Do you have any word on how good he is defensively?

Thanks,

Chuck

Any word on which team the prospects might come from? It makes the most sense for the Pirates to be a part of this if it could maximize the return for Bay. Four prospects, one "elite talent" from each club, perhaps?

Dejan.  Are the Pirates now actively shopping Bay or are other teams just stepping up their offers as the deadline looms and making the Pirates pay attention?  Or can you really tell at this point?

would be surprised if the marlins went through all that trouble just to get manny ramirez for 2 months, even if it did help them win the East. Just doesn't seem like their style.

I just hope they stick by the "We would need to be blown away" statement.  I like the sound of 2 "elite" prospects along with Hermida in this deal.  Bay has been very good and a class act throughout, but this organization needs depth everywhere if we are ever going to be truly competitive.  Just stick to your guns, NH.  If your not "blown away" dont make the deal.  Make other teams pony up real talent.

If the Bucs wind up a part of a three-team deal that sends Bay and Grabow elsewhere, netting a heaping mess of players -- a PACKAGE DEAL, if you will -- I say everyone gets soup. Just once. Even people who abhor the phrase "package deal."

Most scouting reports list Hermida as "average" in the filed, but with potential to be better.  His biggest problem has been staying healthy.

If we can get two elite prospects and Hermeida, I'm ok with this deal.  Actually, I'd be quite happy.

Also, I wonder if something is up with Grabow.  They went to the pen to face a lefty, but they brought in Davis instead of Grabow.  And, Burnett was also loosening up.

I understand the concept that the Pirates might want to blow it up and start over again.  I would be all for hermida and some elites, heck even throw in Grabow, but he HAS to be blown away.  I truly hope NH makes the right call.  One thing NH must know is that SOMETIMES THE BEST TRADES ARE THE ONES THAT AREN'T MADE.  J-Bay might fetch more in the offseason.

Hermida has always been a health concern, but as long as he's not the centerpiece this sounds promising.  He's been touted for a few years, but never really taken off.  

Ideally, the elite prospects would be pitchers.  Although, Dallas MacPherson at 3rd could greatly improve the current situation, allowing Bautista to move back to a utility role.  He's also been touted for awhile, major power just strikes out too much.

Either way, this deal sounds much better than the one earlier with the Marlins.  This is the kind of trade we should've been making over the last 15 years.  NH will be a stud, in my mind, if he can pull this off.  

Jamie33, I disagree.  I think this trade is exactly the Marlins style.  Build a contender and then blow is up.  Rent-a-Manny would definitely fit that mold.

Hermida is still in Florida's game. The only player lifted that doesn't make a lot of sense is Mike Jacobs. And no one has been pulled from the Red Sox lineup. They are losing 8-2 in the 9th and have committed 4 errors.

Jacobs is said to be going to the Giants in a Bengie Molina deal according to Roroworld.

I have heard on the Sons of Sam Horn website that Jack Wilson is involved and that the Sox would send prospect Jed Lowrie to the Bucs.

Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus thinks a deal has been sent to the commissioner's office...

Marlins get Manny Ramirez, one prospect (BOS), and cash (likely Ramirez’s remaining salary)

Pirates get Jeremy Hermida and three prospects (two FLO, one BOS)

Red Sox get Jason Bay and John Grabow

www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered

Dejan!! How legit is this??

www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered

"The Commissioner’s Office has been informed of a deal involving the Pirates, Red Sox, and Marlins. The Commissioner has to sign off on any deal involving cash considerations of more than a million dollars…

...

Marlins get Manny Ramirez, one prospect (BOS), and cash (likely Ramirez’s remaining salary)

Pirates get Jeremy Hermida and three prospects (two FLO, one BOS)

Red Sox get Jason Bay and John Grabow"

John Perrotto says the Pirates could wind up with Jed Lowrie and/or Mike Stanton in this deal, in addition to Hermida, and that Jack Wilson would go to Boston.

Kick in a pitcher and that's a pretty solid return.

www.timesonline.com/.../doc4891143ed6767431824260.txt

done deal?

rotoworld.com/.../HeadLines.aspx

Will Carroll at BP reporting the trade is on Selig's desk for approval.

Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus reporting commissioners office advised of 3 team trade...red sox...fish and pirates.

not all details worked out...and CO has to approve because of cash involved in paying Mannys contract.

Fish get Manny...a Red sox prospect...and money to pay Manny's contract

Pirates get Hermida...2 Fish prospects and 1 red sox prospect.

Red Sox get Bay and Grabow.

Prospects havent been determined.

www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered

AND a few sources say the Pirates are still talking to the Rays. If Neal Huntington is playing these guys off each other to try and up the return, he's a damn champion.

So many names!!!!  How am I supposed to keep up??  Damn this blog.  Looks like I'll get no sleep tonight.

As much as I don't want to see Bay go this is the perfect situation for the Pirates. Two teams competing in the same division which is maybe the best division in baseball. Hopefully the Rays are willing to up their offer to try to stop Boston from getting Bay. Buccos may actually get more than Bay's market value.

Good for the Marlins, hope they get Manny, win the East and win their 3rd world series in the last 12 seasons.  Their attendance will jump and our Buccos will finish 30th in overall attendance for 2008.  How does that sound?

3 world series championships in 12 years and look where we are.

Bay does deserve to be a centerpiece of a championship caliber team.   Our family will miss him.

this sounds good but i dont wanna see it happen because bay is my favorite player in big leagues and i hate boston!

I *love* that the Pirates are exploring this option!!  The Bay to Boston aspect is such a natural that I had hoped (even before reading about the rumored deal) that the Bucs would work directly with Boston.

No the Pirates do not want Manny, but the opportunity to help another team alleviate a "problem" almost certainly enhances the value of their own players.

Whatever happens I love that the Bucs' braintrust is thinking creatively and aggressively.

Linked article from MLB.com certainly makes it appear that Manny wouldn't nix a trade to Florida.

mlb.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Trade deadline day in a situation like this might be as unproductive as the first day of the NCAA March Madness.....no work or sleep.....all trade talk!

bucsfancents80 - that is a very shortsighted opinion.  We have been run by some poor, and very un aggressive upper management in recent years.  The new regime deserves every opportunity to bring in prospects, blow things up, and build for the future their way.

Sure, the Marlins may win 3 World Series in 12 years, but they have blown it up after every run.  Where would they be now if not for the prospects they received for Beckett, Pudge, and the likes when they traded them.  Those moves werent popular at the time, but a small market team must utilize their assets as best as possible.

At the beginning of the season, we had very little in the way of assets with McCutchen and MAYBE Pearce, Lincoln, and Walker all we had in the way of legit prospects.  Our major league talent was given a chance, and deemed not capable of being a contending team, so why not blow it up and try to bring in some new pieces that may be?

I would miss Bay but for the greater good of the Pirates in the long term, I hope this trade does work out.

If the Rays are still involved, this deal will be very good for the Bucs, no matter what.  NH proving he and Coons know what their doing.  This is precisely what we should have been doing for years: moving players at or near peak value.  As someone stated earlier, we very well may get more than market value here, as well, with Rays and Sox competing.

Bay and Jack have been great Pirates, but if we do move them here, at least their going to a potentially great team.  They will be missed but this team cannot stand pat.  There is way to much work to do.

Stockpile the system....and maybe we can be like the Rays in a few years.  We can finally do it the right way.

SI.com mentioning Hermida, Mike Stanton (18 year old with 26 home runs in Class A) and Ryan Tucker to Boston, and then potentially to us, as "one scenario."

sportsillustrated.cnn.com/.../index.html

What quality major league talent have our trades to date really landed for the organization?  A bunch of average pitching prospects at best from the Yankees?  Bay and Grabow go and we get a pretty average Jeremy Hermida and some prospects, and everyone is excited?  Come on, just means it will definitely be 20 years + before we see a .500 club.  We had a solid ofensive club 2 weeks ago -- just needed Snell & Gorzy to step up and find a solid starter like the O's did with Guthrie last year.  I'm definitely not excited -- more sad than anything at the prospect of waiting another 4-5 years for a .500 season.  Arrgh!

I'm actually kind of excited about this trade deadline instead of terrified as in years past.  If we can get this deal completed the Pirates will finally be doing business the right way.  15 years later is still better than never.

Goodtymes - Couldn't agree more.  After 15 losing seasons - it is time to try a new business model.

Pingback from  MLB Trade deadline/rumors thread - Page 11 - SatelliteGuys.US

My guess is that Dejan will not be needing soup in the near future...he will be needing coffee.  Strong coffee.

I'm inclined to agree, in part, with jerryinnorthpotomac....what would this team look like if Snell and Gorzelanny had performed to (what we assumed was) form?  If they rebound next season and the offense is shredded, did we give up on a contender one year too early?

If the prospects that come back turn out to be valuable, great, we may still end up with a contender.  I just wonder if it might have been easier and closer than we thought.

Just random thoughts.

What some people need to understand is that while Nady is having a good season, he is just an above average OF and likely wont have another season like this one going forward, and Marte is just a setup man.

I think we did very well getting a prospect with as much upside as Tabata and 3 pitchers who are better than what we run out there now.

Jerryinnorthpotomac - you can't actually believe that with the current pitching the pirates can be competitive in the national league central. Even if they had good pitching this year, the buccos would still be 4 games behind the cubs. And you don't know that the pirates didn't get major league talent in the nady trade because we haven't seen any of those players in the majors here in pittsburgh yet.

Agreed, it is time to try a new business model.  However, it could be 3 - 4 years or more before we  know if any of the prospects pan out.

Sox vs. yanks  =   bay and grabow vs. nady and marte. intresting................

The problem is that Snell & Gorzo aren't pitching to "form". And if/when they bounce back next year, there's no guarantee the offense is still this good. I mean, the offense really exploded with just 2 real changes... McLouth in center & Doumit catching (oh, and I guess Jason Bay bouncing back). But say X-Man falls back down to earth. And Freddy gets worse, or LaRoche is a Black Hole even longer, or JR decides to bat the pitcher 5th, or etc.... the list goes on. You never know what's going to happen. The team is struggling now, and the PBC brass is building for the future (whenever that may be).

On the plus side... at least they aren't the 'Stros brass and trading for struggling vets on a last-place (or close to it) team.

Also, the pitchers in the deal will be up this year/next year. Pearce is ready for a shot... McCutchen (the outfielder) is close (hopefully).

I guess we'll see. I'm excited. Sad (X-Man, Marte, Jason-ity... they're all awesome), but really excited for the "future".

This current team was nowhere near being a contender.  

If Snell and Gorzo did this....If Capps hadn't gotten hurt....If we had better pitching depth....blah, blah, blah.

Ifs and buts get you candy and NUTS.

Yes, we're having a good offensive year.  So what?  How many players are having career years?  

If you think this team could compete with the Cubs and Brewers (this year and long term), you're fooling yourself.

We need to add quality prospects.  Lots of them.  Along with Latin American and abroad prospects.

Please no more talk of this team competing as-is.

Goodtymes, I agree.  Nady probably is having a career year, and Marte is just a setup man.  But you have to admit, the Yankees didn't give us anything really special.  They were sure to protect all of their top prospects.  We got what they didn't particularly value much -- contrary to what Cashman may say in the media.  He knows that he gave us essentially nothing in return.    

Yeah, I might actually watch those games now (Yanks and Sox).  Seeing as they're the only ones ever on national TV....

I can't believe it - Multiple players in a trade AND a possible multi-team deal in the same week!! I don't care - tomorrow I am having soup all day long.

Tabata has the potential to be special and when people say he is now the No. 1 (or 1A) prospect then he is special to the PBC.  And, well I'll reserve judgment on the pitchers for a few weeks.  They can't be as bad as JVB and the others who have come through this season can they?

Get what you can Pirates leadership. If we can approxiamte anything close to the deal that is in play, we look like a totally different team with more of a future than we had just a week ago. Kudos... for now.

Dejan, thanks for all the time you are putting into this. I think it is helping to build a Pirate Nation:).

OK, Las Vegas Fan, I promise no more talk about the Pirates as is.  I'll look to the future . . .AGAIN.  One or two final concerns  though . . . exactly when did we suddenly land the new scouts who can actually judge talent?  And exactly when did we land a new pitching coach who can actually help  a young kid develop?  Just wondering. :o)

I like the Nady trade either way.  Even if you look at it in terms of being competitive in 2009 they had to open up an OF spot for Cutch and he was the logical one to go.

There are no absolutes.  There's no way to be sure of anything, what this team could have been like or what it will actually be like.  Just have to keep up the hope I suppose.  At least now there IS hope.  No small feat and a credit to the new regime.

per lv fan:

We need to add quality prospects.  Lots of them.  Along with Latin American and abroad prospects.

Please no more talk of this team competing as-is.

yeah--get tons of prospects-- maybe each yr we can trade away vets...mclouth, doumit in 09?..and keep on getting prospects from AA and A...and in ..hwo knows.. 5 or 6 yers we can be at 500--thats nuts

we have a first class OF and the rest of the positions are at least average-- except for starting pitching....get pitchers...not OFs, not IFs, ...but pitchers.. why in the hell do i care if altoona or state college or indy is any good (the eternal prospects argument)... keep what you are good at now...spend the dough for some front line pitching in free agency...draft well (hello prospects).....if we keep tearing down the good vets we have like most are saying we'll be trolling for prospects for the next 10 yrs..and still suck

nady was a bad trade... bay will be even worse....keep what you are good at... spend the cash..use free agency..is this really hard to understand? people want to win now -- you have the nucleus--wake up

opinions about "prospects" are like that hole in your backside---everyone has one... 10:1 we'll get laffed at by the MLB crowd after the Bay fiasco is over with.....pathetic

This line from Paul Meyer's post game story says it all for the Buc's and the decision to blow it up or stay the course:

The loss left the Pirates 6-8 in a 14-game run against Colorado, Houston and San Diego, who were a combined 42 games under .500 entering play tonight.

This team had a chance to make a statement and didn't do it.  I think NH is absolutely doing the right thing.

Greeeeeat...no sleep for me tonight until I see this get done!  I'll be trolling this blog for a while.

Either the folks at http://trades.mlblogs.com/ are drinking heavily or this deal is going to be the blockbuster of all blockbusters:

"LB.com has also learned from sources both in Pittsburgh and Boston that the Red Sox have inquired about both Jack Wilson and John Grabow as well. There have been talks of sending both Wilson and Bay to Boston and Grabow to Florida for a prospect-heavy package that could include big-time Florida OF prospect Mike Stanton (No. 2 pick in 2007), Hermida and Boston's shortstop prospect Jed Lowrie among others."

@ ron d:

"spend the cash..use free agency..is this really hard to understand?"

Derek Bell, Pat Meares, Matt Stairs, Jeromy Burnitz, Joe Randa...shall I keep mentioning FA's we have signed?

DK:  If Tucker is in fact included, are you worried that we are getting too many right handers in light of PNC's dimensions?  I assumed that was why the PBC was happy to have four lefties in the rotation after getting rid of Morris.

Let's face it...no matter how much we like these deals, at least it is a new method and approach by our Bucco management. That is a breath of fresh air alone.

if this goes through, don't the Bucs get some respect around the league for getting involved in a huge, multiplayer deal, involving Ramirez, and getting high-end prospects? It'll give us respect in future deals with GMs, I bet.

But this whole trade can fall apart any second.

Pitchfork - good point.  The team did have an opportunity coming out of the break to make a statement against some weak clubs, and unfortunately just didn't get the job done.  Perhaps we had no real option at this point than to blow it all up (which we certainly are about to do) and start all over again.  Here we go, another 5-year plan.  Right or wrong,  you have to at least admit that following what will essentially be a minor league club next season will be tough.

If the Bucs end up with Hermidia, Stanton, Lowrie and a pitching prospect (such as Tucker) for Bay, Wilson and Grabow, I think that would be another step in the right direction.

Why not use a good trade chip and trade for a few potential front-line starters than pay a ton for someone that is already at peak?

And who here thinks a quality front-line free-agent would come play for this team?  We are nowhere near contending.

The more prospects we have, the better chance a few of them turn out to be gems.  And the more that are behind them, the more we can easily replace them when they approach free agency.  

In addition, if we ever got to the point where we were contending and had some depth, maybe we could be buyers instead of sellers at the deadline and ship off a few prospects for a stud to take us to the Promise Land.

And in response to an earlier post, Jeff Andrews is exactly 5 months into his tenure as Pitching Coach.  Yes, the results have been beyond lousy, but 5 months?  He definitely has played some part in the Gorzo/Snell steps backward.  But so have others - Jim Tracy/Colborn anyone and the 200+ innings eached pitched last year.

And on a similar note, let's give NH some time to earn his stripes.  He's done nothing but impress me, so far.  He and Coons make the final decision.

The only thing I don't like about this is the number of outfielders as opposed to pitchers, especially considering that the biggest talent that we got in the last trade was an outfielder as well.  I understand that with such a lack of talent in the system, no one "blocks" anyone else, as DK loves to remind us.  However, it sure makes the "future" seem further away with our new talent playing the same positions as a couple of our so-called "centerpieces."

Wow, a package deal and a 3-way deal in one week? DK's gonna take a beating over this. Again, if the Pirates trade Bay, they should just go into full blown rebuilding mode. They need look no further than the Marlins. As a Pirate fan, it would be far more enjoyable to be reading about a trade that would bring a player of Manny's caliber to the Pirates instead of reading about what prospects we might be getting in return for Bay.

i think the most important thing is that there is a clear plan in place and they seem to be sticking to it. we can debate all we want about the merit of the prospects, the truth is it's a whole lot of guessing (even by those in the know) and some luck will be involved with who pans out. but for the first time in forever there seems to be a pattern to the decisions. everything is part of a larger plan.

it's kind of sad the bar has been set so low, but that's the reality.

Jerry in NP - I agree it may be a tough few years, but hopefully they figure out a way to keep Dougie M. around next year and he continues to rub off on Doumit and a few of these new guys.  Like others have said, I'm willing to give NH and the new management a few years to turn things around.  

This is the perfect time to be making these kinds of moves.

NH gave the current squad a chance; you can say what you want about "if Gorzy and Snell...etc" but our offense overachieved this year. If we were contending right now then maybe we'd want to wait til the offseason to move anyone but as of right now we're out of the race. Now's the time to move players like Bay to teams desperate for "that final piece" and get as many top prospects as we can.

The moves they're making now make sense, and it seems like we actually have some kind of plan (for once!).

Just the fact that we're involved in speculation about this kind of trade is a breath of fresh air, whether or not it actually goes through. I like the thought process involved in this trade. Sure beats getting Matt Morris.

The Nady/Marte trade was a great trade.  While most of you are innocent, some Pirates fans still don't the paucity of talent in the organization.  Tabata is a high-end talent, with some outlets ranking him about Austin Jackson.  Tabata's, what 19?  The jump from High-A to AA is notoriously hard.  I'm pretty sure many naysayers will be changing their tune next year.

And remember that Huntington quote, what asked if he would have traded Nady and Marte straight up for Tabata last winter - "Absolutely".  Now add three pitchers ready to jump into the majors and you've got a GM and front office that know what they're doing.

I TOTALLY freaked out when I first saw the name Mike Stanton. Then I learned it was a prospect... whew.

Let's see Marlins trade supestar players for prospect and that works out good, Oakland trades star players for prospect more soup for Billy Beane. Pittsburgh 15 years of status quo. Love the Nady trade love NH for shaking things up. Nobody goes to the games anymore We will miss Mr. Personality Bay. Great player. But it's time

We're in for a long night!!!!!

The thing I'm really dying to know is whether or not the Red Sox/Marlins called to "overwhelm" us, or if we have more of a Nady situation with NH advertising a lower price.  I hope and suspect that it's the former, but I'd like to know for sure...

This is one of those rare instances when living on the West Coast is a distinct advantage -- it's going to be a long night!

A couple of points

1) If PBC came out of this 3 team 14 game series 9/5 or 10/4 are we even talking about this type of trade?

2) Did NH have it in his mind, competitive wise if we dont come out winners...Blow it up. Even Wilson. Find the biggest and best deal possible and blow it all to peices.

3) If this goes through, no matter what, you have to give management an A for effort and a strong backbone to move the vets.

Hey, not to be negative but . . . just thinking that if the prospects turnout to be the usual, we might be looking  25 years (a full quarter of a century without a .500 team.  That's not really possible, is it?  Yikes.  God, I hope not.  Prospects, Ok.  I'll live with still anotherr round of them, but this time some of them had better produce.  Can't stand watching another Zake Duke story.

pitchfork- amen on the Dougie comment. Keep him here. Let him teach these youngins about this game. I think he can fall into the "untouchable" category with Doumit, Nate and Maholm.

watery- Agree on a pattern and sticking to it. So many references to the Marlins. People have criticized their ways for years yet look at that pattern...it has definitely worked. And as a baseball fan, I always watch the Marlins. They are always a young and exciting team that gets better every year. I would love to have a Bucco team look like that. Keep it up NH...we are all behind you!

Nailersfan-

I had the same reaction when I saw Mike Stanton that you did.

"following what will essentially be a minor league club next season will be tough."

Heck, it's tough following this "major league" club now.  And back in March, there were many Marlins fans (and, likely, ESPN *experts*) saying that following the Marlins and their $22 Million payroll this year was going to be tough, particularly after they traded their best player, Miguel Cabrera, for a bunch of prospects.  The Marlins are currently sitting 1.5 games out of first place and are 6 games over .500.  Sounds like they're doing something right with all those minor leaguers.

1) I hope so

2) I think NH knew all along that he had to strengthen the team by trading guys at peak value

3) right idea, so far good execution on the tabata, mccuthen, ohlendorf trade.

Even if we blow it up, look at Florida.  They have acquired so much talent over the years in their trades that even when they are rebuilding, they are competitive.  They have the most exciting player in baseball, Hanley Ramirez, and are in the hunt in a tough division.  Blow it up: if we get elite talent, we can't but help win some games.  We'll still have Doumit, McClouth, McCutchen, Tabata - sounds like some decent hitters to me.

BillyKidd - excellent question.  My guess is this has been NH's plan all along, and that it was just a matter of getting the rest of the PBC management to go along.

Peter Gammons updates his ESPN report:

"As midnight approached Wednesday night on the East Coast, officials from the Marlins and Red Sox said a deal involving Manny Ramirez was not done. Indications from Pittsburgh were that the Pirates were not satisfied with the players they were receiving in exchange for sending Jason Bay to Boston. And in California, Ramirez's agent, Scott Boras, said he had been told nothing, which means nothing has been completed in terms of Ramirez's waiving his no-trade rights or in completing paperwork to send to the commissioner's office. "

sports.espn.go.com/.../index

not sure why everyone equates getting rid of Bay Grabow and Wilson "blowing it up." Nady and Marte were gone anyway. The Marlins after they win a championship- "blowing it up.' The Pirates trading a few players for prospects and major-league ready players without a salary dump involved- not blowing it up. If that's the case, then the A's "blow it up" every year.... and we know that's not true- they are always in contention

SRC22 - Beware of the "untouchable" label.  I think Gorzo, Snell, Duke, and Duffy were all thought of as untouchable by Littlefield.  Two of those guys aren't even in the majors right now.

And remember that Huntington quote, what asked if he would have traded Nady and Marte straight up for Tabata last winter - "Absolutely".  Now add three pitchers ready to jump into the majors and you've got a GM and front office that know what they're doing.

not even putting marte into the equation....your trying a guy who is one of the best OFs in the game...and can hit for average and power (and forget that 'this is his banner year and he'll be average in future years' line--the guy can hit) for a 19 yr old injury prone bad attitude kid who walks out on his teammates....and the PBC is getting kudos for that deal..come on fans...no wonder this team gets off for not doing the things the right way.... we're makeing trades..yea..its a breath of fresh air...the trades have to be good..isnt that the point? we need front line pithcers --not overweight prima donnas...

ask yourself if we would spend the money for a front line pitcher or 2 and kept the same team in tact--with some of the starting pitchers now bye-bye--is that team good enough to compete?yes

one more thing.. about jeffy andrews.. when is the last ime a starting pitcher threw high and tight to one of these guys who always seem to go 8 for 11 in a series against us (see soriano, glaus)--why is it that our pithcers do not ever knock anyone down (except for yates once in awhile)-- dont understand that..if i'm getting racked by one or 2 guys the whole series i see other teams throwing high and tight-- we invite them to dig in and hit another rope....why is that?

SRC22 -- let's hope that PNC doesn't mirror the Marlins crib though.  The stands are always empty.  But let's be realistic,  that could be the case at PNC next year too as everyone adjusts to having a team of nothing but prospects -- and in all probability a solid seat in the cellar of the Central.  Exciting prospects like the Marlins, maybe.  Empty stands like the Marlins, maybe.

Does anyone have any more actual news re: the status of the possible 3-way?

Good to see that Peter Gammons update...answers my earlier question about whether or not NH is feeling "overwhelmed."

wasatch for the bucs====that was Littlefield. I would be very very disappointed and upset if Nate, Doumit or Maholm were let go. I highly doubt they would be, so I am just using the term "untouchable" seeing that it is used so often. To be honest, with this organization there should be no "untouchables" at all. But I do remember reading that NH referred to Nate and Doumit as "championship pieces."

ron d - you make a good point regarding our pitchers and their refusal to knock anyone down.  with respect to your comments about adding a starter or two, the question is two fold: 1.) who  do you think would be willing to come here - unless we completely overpay - which is unlikely; and, 2.) why do you assume the offense would continue as is.  If watching the PBC the last few years has taught me anything it is that consistency (with the exception of losing) is not their strong suit.

Seriously, Nady, one of the best OF in the game?  I dont think so.  Having a great season? Yes.  Not one of the best OF in the game though.  History of injuries and one good season does not a star make.

jerryin...-that is the worst stadium in the majors. Plus fla is quite hot. They are building a new park and their attendance will get much better. And let's face it. As long as we have bobbleheads and fireworks, our attendance will always be decent. We do have the gem of all parks in the majors.

And wow, Tucker, Hermida, Lowrie, and Stanton?  Wow.  If we end up with those 4 guys....Just Wow

Peter Gammons reports:

"As midnight approached Wednesday night on the East Coast, officials from the Marlins and Red Sox said a deal involving Manny Ramirez was not done. Indications from Pittsburgh were that the Pirates were not satisfied with the players they were receiving in exchange for sending Jason Bay to Boston. And in California, Ramirez's agent, Scott Boras, said he had been told nothing, which means nothing has been completed in terms of Ramirez's waiving his no-trade rights or in completing paperwork to send to the commissioner's office.

So, the complicated three-way deal might go down close to Thursday's 4 p.m. ET deadline. Ramirez wants out, and is willing to go to Florida. The Marlins want him -- and what he means to their pennant chances and pursuit of a new ballpark. The Red Sox clearly are willing to finance Ramirez's exit."

If this is true, it would appear that Neal Huntington is holding this thing up. The Pirates are holding the Marlins, Red Sox and Rays hostage right now to get the deal that they want. Even if the deal doesn't get done, how freaking encouraging is this? This could go down in history as the day that our organization grew a pair. Huntington doesn't need to trade Bay, and he knows it. But he's got two teams who want to get a deal done involved, and it seems to be at the point where they need the Pirates involved if the deal is going to get done. They NEED the Pirates. But the Pirates are going to get what they want, and they're not going to be pushed around. Brilliant.

Can I get a hallelujah from the congregation?

Not sure why other people are bashing the Nady/Marte prospects -- remember when Littlefield shipped Ramirez, Lofton and cash to the Cubs for a couple cases of Old Style and ended up keeping the guys who delivered the OS.

All will take time to determine if the prospects pan out -- all won't -- but NH has done a pretty good job at getting value back and selling high.

I'll agree with you there, Big Nate is absolutely untouchable.  Power, speed, good attitude - great player to be a fan of.

The Gammons news isn't good.  Sounds like the Marlins and BoSox are trying to mirror the Yankees' treatment of the Pirates -- forcing us to take a bunch of average minor league pitchers and a tiny 160 lbs OF'er.  If we end up giving away Bay and Grabow and Wilson for questionable prospects like the Yankee prospects were . . . Arrgh!

just posted on the Bore Leader

As midnight approached Wednesday night on the East Coast, officials from the Marlins and Red Sox said a deal involving Manny Ramirez was not done. Indications from Pittsburgh were that the Pirates were not satisfied with the players they were receiving in exchange for sending Jason Bay to Boston. And in California, Ramirez's agent, Scott Boras, said he had been told nothing, which means nothing has been completed in terms of Ramirez's waiving his no-trade rights or in completing paperwork to send to the commissioner's office.

So, the complicated three-way deal might go down close to Thursday's 4 p.m. ET deadline. Ramirez wants out, and is willing to go to Florida. The Marlins want him -- and what he means to their pennant chances and pursuit of a new ballpark. The Red Sox clearly are willing to finance Ramirez's exit.

But the value of the young players was a sticking point late into the night, and one Red Sox official said, "This is anything but done."

The Nomar Garciaparra deal in 2004 went down to minutes before the deadline, and there was so much confusion the Twins never received the second prospect they thought they were owed. This might be Nomar Redux.

saw it was already posted here

sorry ..my bust

@ ron d

nady is an average outfielder having a good year. In his best season to date he only played in 125 games, hit 20 home runs and had 78 rbis to go along with a .278 batting average. those numbers are not overwhelming by any means.not to mention he is 30 years old. trading nady at peak value for a high end prospect and 3 pitchers that could be back of the rotation guys was a great move for this team

My thinking is that if we get some quality prospects at or near the big league level, we are achieving something that would take several years of drafting and waiting. We will still have to wait a few years, but not as long as doing it the other way. And while I love Bay and co., exactly what have we won with them?

Go for it Neal.

Again @ ron d :

"your[sic] trying a guy who is one of the best OFs in the game...and can hit for average and power (and forget that 'this is his banner year and he'll be average in future years' line--the guy can hit)"

Nady has never played more than 130 games in a season - and you're calling Tabata "injury prone?"

And WHO is this "overweight" player you fail to name?

Also, how about an answer to my question about your previous diatribe about Free Agents?

ron d - you make a good point regarding our pitchers and their refusal to knock anyone down.  with respect to your comments about adding a starter or two, the question is two fold: 1.) who  do you think would be willing to come here - unless we completely overpay - which is unlikely; and, 2.) why do you assume the offense would continue as is.  If watching the PBC the last few years has taught me anything it is that consistency (with the exception of losing) is not their strong suit.

this team is different from yrs past-- and if mgt opens the purse the players will come... just get tired of all the losing ...i remeber the 70s and early 90s..then again anyone posting on this blog and not bowing to their steeler shrine right now has to be a true baseball fan

NH needs to stand tall.  Make it clear to the Red sox that if they want Bay (and they appear to both want and need him) then these are the players we want in return period.  Make them blink for a change.  Going to be hard next season watching Bay crank out 45 HRs over the Monster while our new outfielders (Pearce?  Tabata?, etc.) struggle to hit the Mendoza line. Hey, just telling it like it might be for a while. :o)

yeah, i second that. let's get daring, for once.

For the record, it isn't possible to be one of the best OF's in baseball if this is the only season in five that you've hit over .280, especially if you've never played more than 130 games in a season before this year. NH did exactly what good GM's do: sell at a player's peak value, and this is exactly where Nady was: his PEAK. He's not going to be as good as he is now for much longer, and this was the best time to unload him. He was on his way out anyway because Boras would've made him test the market after next year, and so was Marte because PBC wasn't gonna pay $6M for him. Besides, the Yankees are the ones who called the Pirates, and if they didn't get what they wanted from NH, they would've got it somewhere else. Period. He's lucky he got three arms -- better than the ones he already had, mind you -- and an outfielder already in AA at 19 with a lot of upside once he starts acting like a professional.

About the Bay trade, I personally would like to see him stay because of his value to the offense and the organization, but if it means this team can be better, than so be it. Who better to deal with than a team like Florida who has prospects to burn from trading away there stars in years past, and Boston, whose GM Theo Epstein is running a practical prospect factory in Boston. Remember where Freddy Sanchez came from? How about David Murphy down in Texas? This is no coincidence, people. If we can benefit from the arsenals these two teams have for the future, I'm willing to wait. I'm an NH and Frankie C believer simply because they're established baseball guys, not just a couple of McClatchy substitute teachers. And how come nobody gives Bob Nutting credit for letting baseball guys do their jobs so he doesn't have to pretend like K-Mac did? I guess damned if he does, damned if he doesn't...

I'm encouraged that NH is only willing to take a tremendous deal to move Bay.  Hopefully he's using all this leverage against Tampa as well.

I'm sure that was a joke about Bay cranking 45 HRs over the monster? I love Bay and wish we could keep him for the majority of his career, but there's no way a line drive kind of player hits that many homers over that behemoth. But either way, I hope he's a Ray in the end anyways...hopefully this proposed 3-way coaxes the prospects we want out of the Tampa front office.

Ron d - I grew up with the Buc's in the early 70's (and was a member of Omar's Outfit in the late '70's - that's a reference to former PBC center fielder Omar Moreno for you young one's out there) so I understand your frustration.  I feel bad for my oldest son as he is a diehard baseball fan who has never experienced a winning PBC club during the years.    Everyone posting here tonight wants this team to succeed.  We just all have different ideas as to how that best can be accomplished.

Here's a "Hallelujah!" from one of the congregation.

Excellent point about Bay, Yotum. Remember the '06 Home Run Derby? And someone thinks he's hitting 45 in Boston? Absolutely ridiculous. And for those who think we got jobbed by the Yanks, you think NH is seeing this possible three-team swap with Boston and Florida through for no reason? He KNOWS Tampa's watching, and he knows he can benefit from it if they get antzy. Now THAT'S sound management, people!

Yotum -- nope.  The 45 was no jolke. If Bay can hit 30-35 at PNC and on a club with no protection for him in the line up, you don't think he can hit 45 at Fenway with the solid Red Sox lineup -- only to get better as their prospects keep coming.  He'll alter his swing a bit and the 40-45 will be there.  Meanwhile, how will Pearce and our 160 lbs wonder (Tabata) be doing?  I just hope that Tabata doesn't walk off the field in the middle of one of those many games in which the Brewers, Cards, Cubs, etc., are killing us.  :o)  Trust me, the Yankees gave him up for a reason.  

The Palm Beach Post reports that tentative deal is done.

Pirates get Hermida, Ryan Tucker, prospect form Sox and apparently another prospect from Flo.

Sox get Bay, Grabow

Flo gets Manny, Sox prospects, and cash

Propsects still to be worked out (seed eal with Yankees)

Ryan Tucker is exciting.  Very high ceiling.  Hermida is a fine young OFer; LH bat, only 24.  If the other prospects are even decent there is a very good deal for the Pirates.

RO.

Um, Bay wasn't in the '06 Home Run Derby. I was there.  It was the year before.

Rogero -- thanks for the update.  But where are the quality pitching prospects that NH said we desperately need?  We seem to be swapping a soild hitting OF'er in Bay and a decent arm in Grabow for 2 OFprospects?  Why not a real quality pitching prospect?  Why? Without that, the trade means nothing because we STILL won't have any starters of any worth.  And no, please don't mention the garbage we got from the Yankees.  They are long relief bullpen crasp at best -- at least 3 of them.

This was released on ESPN a short while ago.. Can anyone say Bye Bye Manny???

"They haven't asked me for anything," Ramirez told ESPNdeportes.com's Enrique Rojas on the phone from Fenway Park before the Red Sox-Angels matchup on Wednesday night.

"The Red Sox don't deserve a player like me," Ramirez said. "During my years here, I've seen how they [the Red Sox] have mistreated other great players when they didn't want them to try to turn the fans against them.

"The Red Sox did the same with guys like Nomar Garciaparra and Pedro Martinez, and now they do the same with me. Their goal is to paint me as the bad guy," Ramirez added. "I love Boston fans, but the Red Sox don't deserve me. I'm not talking about money. Mental peace has no price, and I don't have peace here."

For the record, it isn't possible to be one of the best OF's in baseball if this is the only season in five that you've hit over .280, especially if you've never played more than 130 games in a season before this year. NH did exactly what good GM's do: sell at a player's peak value, and this is exactly where Nady was: his PEAK. He's not going to be as good as he is now for much longer, and this was the best time to unload him. He was on his way out anyway because Boras would've made him test the market after next year, and so was Marte because PBC wasn't gonna pay $6M for him. Besides, the Yankees are the ones who called the Pirates, and if they didn't get what they wanted from NH, they would've got it somewhere else. Period. He's lucky he got three arms -- better than the ones he already had, mind you -- and an outfielder already in AA at 19 with a lot of upside once he starts acting like a professional.

"once he starts acting like a professional" --why even take the chance that he might not-and why make him the focal point of the trade..and by the way he is the one who supposedly has weight problems

my kid --age 9-- is a bucs fan too..luckily i still have vcr tapes of the good old days--face it guys-- this team is gonna stink as song as they dont face the reality that they have to dip into free agency legitmately (spend money on good players...not 3rd tier guys) ..and the argument that we have been burned on past free agency isnt a good one-- other clubs have been rewarded--all it takes is an eye for talent

Sure, Jerry, he'll have protection, but he'll also have an added pressure that's been alluuded to quite a bit recently (mainly how Bay seems to flourish as a big fish in a small pond sort of thing). Not only that, but youu don't just adjust your swing to compensate for something like the Monster. Bay is a line-drive hitter. Period. He never belonged in the home run derby. Yes, he's a good--even great--hitter, but his strength is in putting the ball to gaps and having his balls get driven right out of the park. How will he do that in Fenway? Those homers become double, long singles, etc. All this considered, I still think the Rays put the better package on the table and they offer him a better environment in which to be successful. While he would hit "45" in your estimation in Boston, I'd be willing to bet he drives in 100-120 playing for a team like the Rays who've got some decent table-setters like Upton, Crawford and some protection like Pena and Longoria. Either way, here's to hoping Bay continues to flourish, whether it's with us or a new club. I'm just putting my faith in the front office right now. *Crosses fingers*

One of the Florida prospects who would head the Pirates' way, according to a source in Miami, is 21-year-old right-handed starter Ryan Tucker, who was summoned this season from Class AA to make six appearances with the Marlins. He went 2-3 with an 8.39 ERA.

didnt this guy pitch for us tues nite?

please do not make this trade--someone rip the phones out of the wall at pbc

Jerry,

25 years of sub .500?  That's what we're heading for if the Pirates continue to operate the way they have for the past 15 years.  This would be a huge step in the right direction - even if these prospects don't all reach their potential.  This would represent a huge shift in the way of thinking.

Everyone always cites the Marlins, A's, Indians and Twins as successful organizations that are run on a relatively low budget/small market.  Every one of them has made unpopular trades of veterans to help build a stockpile of young talent.  Sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't.  But that's the point.  You need to collect enough of them so that at least a few of them work out.

People have been citing the Pirates "2010 lineup" all day on here and it includes guys like  Neil Walker and Steve Pearce.  Those guys are just as good a bet to fail as everyday guys as they are to succeed.  Our problem is that they are far from sure-things and are in our top-5 prospects on almost every list you'll see.  Walker's barely hitting his weight.  

I understand the sentimentality of the situation, but I don't want to watch Bay, Sanchez, and Wilson lose 90 games 2 years from now any more than I enjoyed it the last three years.

It's insane to repeat our past behaviors and decisions and expect different results

rond -- I like your sense of humor.  And I have to agree with you.  I'm concerned that the only pitching prospect we seem to be getting is Tucker.  I'm tired of kids who can't make the jump from A ball to AA ball. without blowing up.  We don't need someone who's going to take 3-4 years to get used to AA ball.  We need someone who can move up to AA ball and dominate.  That's the prospect i want.  i'm tired of waiting for "project players" with "lots of upside" never really making it.  I want some stud who clearly will make it -- not someone who started for us on Tuesday night.  Ha!

Jerry,

Ryan Tucker is a quality pitching prospect, not an OFer.  And there will likely be at least another pitcher coming as well.  Mike Stanton, a top OF prospect of Flo, has been mentioned, but I don't think he's going anywhere.

Jerry:

Ryan Tucker is the pitching prospect. He has an extremely high ceiling, as rogero stated.

Ron:

Tucker is 21 years old and is a power pitcher. He is probably the exact opposite of Herrera.

Are some of you guys gonna complain about any name that comes up? Let's chew on a serious slice of reality that has escaped this area for over a decade: this organization has below-average talent. Tucker pitched for Florida because they had problems with injuries and he was 4-2 with a 1.41 ERA in AA.

And why does everybody keep extrapolating the prospects we get -- or may get -- into how they would play in the majors tomorrow? In case you haven't noticed, NH isn't looking for guys to put on the field in PGH now, he's looking to put them on the field in the FUTURE. And I don't care how you spin it, the guys in question are better than the ones they have right now. If you need further proof, look at the win-loss totals. The only team in the ENTIRE organization with a winning record is the Rookie Ball team in Bradenton. Coincidence? You tell me.

i'm tired of waiting for "project players" with "lots of upside" never really making it.

Wait... what? The Pirates haven't had "project players" with "lots of upside" in forever.

And Tucker has been fine in AA. It was the jump up to the majors from AA when his numbers became bad. And jumping a guy from AA to the majors probably isn't the best way to go anyways...

Jerry:

Tucker has a 1.37 ERA in AA this year, As a 21-year old.

Ryan Tucker is a very good prospect, his numbers in the majors notwithstanding.  

In his last 10 minor league appearances (9 starts), he's given up 0 or 1 ER 9 times!!!  

He's 21 years old.

"this guy" doesn't exist in our system, let alone pitch tuesday night.

Clay Buccholz and Clayton Kershaw have been roughed up in the majors this year too....and we'd give half of team to get one of them.

thats my point jerry--for some reason you and i are a minority..we're trading established vet ofs for more young unproven ofs-- we need high impact pitchers--great prospects--if we cant get them then wait until the off season-- and see what free agency brings//to make deals b/c its a new attitude/ take a chance /blow it up-- thats just throwing crap against the wall and hoping it works out-- i wnat to win in the next few yrs--lets win a few yrs and thing we can think about our prospect dynasty

and why are we not trying to redo doug m now-- another guy who wnats to be here and is a good player for the next 2-3 yrs--oh i forgot --he doesnt fit our dynasty mode

let it go people--- win short term for a change-arent u tired of building for the future-- ive seen the future the past 15 yrs-- it blows-this is actually a season where i can still watch this club this late in the yr

rogero -- I know that Ryan Tucker is a pitching prospect ( I was referring to Hermina and Tabata).  i just question how good he is.  I'm tired of "projects".  i'm looking for a pitcher (unlike unfortunately just about every pitching prospect we've drafted during the past 5 years) who you can really tell has a great shot at making it.  2-3 with an 8.00+ ERA isn't overly impressive.  Looks like a 3-4 year project guy to me. He's definitely not one of their elite pitching prospects.  Right?i

Jerry:

Tucker has a 1.37 ERA in AA this year, As a 21-year old.

great-altoona will be really good now when he gets there

who gives a (u fill in the blank)

still waiting for someone--anyone--to tell me why the bucs should not be throwing more ducats at quality free agent pitchers in 09--is it because we are afraid that pbc is going to make a bad call on talent?-- isnt that the smae thing with these prospects? but if they make the right call on the FAs we'll be competitive quicker--and without as much drain on our present club

From everything I've read today, I think there is little chance Bay will be going to Tampa Bay. They don't seem willing to give up much for him.

As DK just reported...Tucker will NOT be included in any trades.

12:15 a.m. Thursday: Fox Sports' Ken Rosenthal has this.

Two prominent Marlins prospects who have been mentioned — Class AA right-hander Ryan Tucker and Class A outfielder Michael Stanton — will not be in the trade, Marlins sources said.

A few other things I found about Tucker. BA ranked him something like #3 in the Fla. system coming into the year. He also is a power pitcher, with the "best fastball" in the Marlins system. He was projected as their closer for 2011. I also read, on a negative note, that he needs to develop a solid 3rd pitch to be effective as a starter. Otheriwise, he'll likely be limited to a flame-throwing reliever role.

And next year the offense falls back to earth and we still don't have a bullpen behind Capps & Grabow & Marte (assuming we didn't make the trade with the Yankees). And which SP is going to help the team? Based on what we've seen so far, you'd need to sign like 3 strong SPs to even have a shot at being respectable.

Building for the future in NH's terms is not the same as "building for the future" in DL's terms.

As for Doug... let's see what happens. He could very easily be back... he's a great player for the team off of the bench.

Win in the short term? How? With whom?

Make moves in free agency? And where do you start? With whom? Who of any consequence would take the Pirates' money to come here willingly?

You find me a small-market team who has the MLB product or financial flexibility to make a short-term move, and we can be shocked together.

And someone please explain to me the definition of a "sure thing" when evaluating a prospect, please. Because unless I'm missing something, players like Tabata, Tucker, and Stanton are (or were at some point) considered sure thing prospects. What more do you want??

Tucker anbd Stanton and won't be in any trades?  Now that tells me that they do value these dudes -- and that I was probably wrong about Tucker.   Guess we'll be getting the fodder instead.  As I said earlier, NH must stand firm on an Bay trade.  Get quality prospects, real quality prospects in return, or simply sit on Bay until the off season period. don't give him away to Boston or Tampa Bay.  Please!

And next year the offense falls back to earth and we still don't have a bullpen behind Capps & Grabow

let capps and his 91 mph fast ball stay in bradenton forever-face it--the guys has one pitch--and his velocity isnt good enuf to be just a fb--with no movement by the way-- relief pitcher-i rather have yates there-- at least he can bring it and is a little wild to scare some people

heres another point since i 'm on a roll--doumit is not a catcher-too may pass balls, cant block well--sometimes he has trouble just catching the damn thing-p[ut him in RF-- pearce is not a RF-- he's a bench guy--give chavez a chance-- he's an adequate hitter--even tho people say he's not-- he still seems to hit--and he 100% defensively-- doumit is embarassing back there

trade mccuthcheon-he isnt even hitting in AAA that well-- all hype-package him with grabow and get a better priching prospect

starting OF

bay/mcclouth/doumit

michaels and morgan as backups

Ron:

I don't see how you think your model is realistic. Why don't they just trade for Manny, sign Sabathia, and flip Bay to the Rays for David Price? Because they CAN'T. People don't want to play in Pittsburgh, nobody goes to the games so the Pirates can't afford these players (sure there is no financial strain now but the Bucs can't just add 30m in payroll without skipping a beat), and there is not enough talent to get the "sure thing, high-upside pitching prospect you require," because there are two or three of those in the entire world.

Everybody on these boards would LOVE to win now. But it's simply not going to happen. The Bucs have made a lot of progress next year. Let's not ruin it by clinging to a sinking ship.

That said, if they can't get a good return for Bay, don't make the deal. Brignac and Niemann wasn't enough. Hellickson and Brignac might be. Hopefully whatever the Marlins offer will be... If not, I hope to see Bay in a Pirate uniform Friday.

Tucker is not ready for the majors right now. Let him get through AA (& then AAA) first. He's coming... he's not MLB-ready right this instant. Thus the high ERA in the majors.

Quality money at starters? Who do you want? CC Sabathia? He's already out of the Pirates price range. And that's only 1 start every 5 games. We have Maholm. Snell/Gorzo/Duke have all looked bad this year. So you still need 2 or 3 more starters, unless they all turn it around. Unless the Pirates all of a sudden find buried treasure, they're not going to have the money to go out and sign the guys that can help this team compete next year. That's why you build from within... like the A's & Twins & all.

To go out and get the big FAs (competing with LA & NY & Boston & Chicago), the team needs money. A lot of it. And they don't have it. So they need to build in a different way. It'll take a bit longer, yes. But NH has only been on the job for 1 year. Give him a bit longer...

In addition to pitching prospects can we trade for a pitching coach as well?  I hope all of NH's hard work adding pitching depth goes for naught after our pitching staff get's a hold of them.  It could bad scouting on all of those wasted 1st round arms, but maybe it could be the staff who is derailing them.

Jerry and akaufman I'm with you guys: If they can't get the kind of elite talent you need for Bay, keep him. After all, that's the whole point of trading him, right? Selling him for anything less than top-level talent is a huge mistake of the DL variety. We don't need any more of those. I'd rather keep him and take my chances in the off-season.

Time for some sleep.  Let's hope the stars shine on the Pirates tonight and someone gives in tomorrow and meets NH's demands.  If Bay and Grabow have to go, let's be sure we get some quality prospects for them.  Unfortunately, any 3-way looks a bit iffy right now.  But we'll see . . .

Win in the short term? How? With whom?

Make moves in free agency? And where do you start? With whom? Who of any consequence would take the Pirates' money to come here willingly?

You find me a small-market team who has the MLB product or financial flexibility to make a short-term move, and we can be shocked together

you're right --no one will come to pittsburgh..its smoky here and the woman have crazy hair

you have that" woe is me i'm from pittsburgh attitude--i actually moved back last yr after 30 yrs gone-cut the "no one wnat to play in pittsburgh or a small mkt team" crap

if you pay them they'll come--nice park and little pressure

as to players and contract terms --let me review all the mlb rosters and i'll get back to you--stand by your computer -- we have the finances-- the nut heads need to let george washington see the daylight and spend a few dollars--

and one more thing-- everyone raves about the mlbpa being so strong-if that is true then how did they do a new cba a few yrs back and not include a provison that teams have to spend a certain MINIMUM in team salary (like is one in nfl and nhl--and i think nlb too-- )??????????

It is going to be hard for the Pirates to get an acceptable package in this proposed three way trade. The Red Sox refused to give up some of their top guys to get Johan Santana last winter. The Marlins make a habit of getting elite prospects in trades, not giving them up. DK and Ken Rosenthal are reporting that Tucker and Stanton are off the table. Basically that means no elite prospects but potentially a higher number of middle to good prospects. I say keep Bay, at least until the off season.

In addition to pitching prospects can we trade for a pitching coach as well?  I hope all of NH's hard work adding pitching depth goes for naught after our pitching staff get's a hold of them

nah..keep jeffy and the silent one around..they're cheap...all the hype about andrews before the season is only overshadowed byu the *** poor job he has done this yrr

is russell actually alive --or is that just a mannequin in there every night

long

if you pay them they'll come--nice park and little pressure

Pay them how? The team isn't big market enough to be able to go out and get CC & Manny & Sheets.

I agree with the sentiment that if the return isn't what you want, don't trade. Don't bend to the bigger market teams. Bend once, and keep bending, because it'll be the same thing every time.

On the plus side, Kevin Goldstein at BP is reporting that the deal would involve Tucker, Stanton & Hermida heading to Pittsburgh.

I'd love to see the Wilson/Lowrie bit added in, but that's just an extra wish.

Off to bed... hopefully we'll have some good news tomorrow. And more deals... it's going to be boring with no game.

sorry about the spelling boys-- time for a nap

thx for the dialogue

any chance we can get candelaria and ellis out of retirement?

I'm sorry, Ron, have we met? Because if you really KNEW me, you'd know I don't have the "woe is me I'm from Pittsburgh" attitude you speak of. In fact, I actually detest it. I have a "I'm from Pittsburgh and I accept REALITY" attitude. Maybe I'm crazy, but when's the last time you heard top-tier free agents jumping at the opportunity to play here, much less the management taking that big of a risk to pay them? That's not a matter of attitude, that's fact, my friend...

from roto world

In an article updated at 11:50 pm EDT, SI.com's Jon Heyman says that a deal between the Marlins and Red Sox for Manny Ramirez is close and that the teams have relayed their dealings to the commissioner's office.

That goes along with what Will Carroll wrote earlier. The Red Sox will need Bud Selig's approval since they're expected to pick up the $7 million that Ramirez is still owed as part of a deal. Heyman says it's no lock that the Pirates will be part of the trade, though Pittsburgh is clearly in Boston's ideal scenario. The Red Sox want Jason Bay, but they could try to mix in a different third team. Heyman adds that the Dodgers were willing to part with Matt Kemp for Ramirez, but that those talks are on the sidelines now. Jul. 31 - 12:11 am et

Sure we can get Ellis out of retirement? Anybody got any LSD?

Yotum -

Bay is not a line-drive hitter.

The Hardball Times (www.thehardballtimes.com) tracks, among other worthwhile measures of performance, line drive percentage. Its statistics glossary defines line drive percentage as such:

"Baseball Info Solutions tracks the trajectory of each batted ball and categorizes it as a groundball, fly ball or line drive. LD% is the percent of batted balls that are line drives. Line drives are not necessarily the hardest hit balls, but they do fall for a hit around 75% of the time."

Ryan Ludwick leads the NL with a 28.2 LD%. Xavier Nady, at the time of his trade, was third in the league with a 26.5% mark. That's 26.5% of the balls Nady put in play this year going for line drives.

Freddy Sanchez is a line-drive hitter to the tune of 24%, Adam LaRoche clocks in at 22.6%.

These guys are what you might call line drive hitters. Jason Bay is not one of these guys.

This year, just 17.6% of Bay's balls in play have been line drives. That's low, and more disturbingly, it'd be a three-year high. Last year, his LD% was 16.5%, the year before it was 15.6%. In 2005, it was a more respectable 22.2%, but that looks like a fluke when you put it up against his career numbers. In '04, he put up a 17.5 LD%. Between 2004 and 2007, about 42% of Bay's balls in play were fly balls, and nearly the same percentage were ground balls. Bay hits very few line drives.

If you need more proof, this Baseball Prospectus profile lays it out pretty clearly: www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php

In conclusion, Jason Bay is not a line drive hitter. He won't hit 45 home runs playing half a season at Fenway, but he's not a line drive hitter.

You know what's great? Facts.

at least he'd throw at people..read on

On May 1st, 1974, Ellis earned the dubious distinction of becoming the first pitcher in MLB history to hit three consecutive batters.

From TBR:

In spring training that year, Ellis sensed the Pirates had lost the aggressiveness that drove them to three straight division titles from 1970 to 1972. Furthermore, the team now seemed intimidated by Cincinnati’s “Big Red Machine.” “Cincinnati will bullshit with us and kick our ass and laugh at us,” Ellis said. “They’re the only team that talk about us like a dog.” Ellis single-handedly decided to break the Pirates out of their emotional slump, announcing that “We gonna get down. We gonna do the do. I’m going to hit these motherfuckers.” True to his word, in the first inning of the first regular-season game he pitched against the Reds, Ellis hit leadoff batter Pete Rose in the ribs, then plunked Joe Morgan in the kidney, and loaded the bases by hitting Dan Driessen in the back. Tony Perez, batting cleanup, dodged a succession of Ellis’ pitches to walk and force in a run. The next hitter was Johnny Bench. “I tried to deck him twice,” Ellis recalled. “I threw at his jaw, and he moved. I threw at the back of his head, and he moved.” At this point, Pittsburgh manager Danny Murtaugh removed Ellis from the game. But his strategy worked: the Pirates snapped out of their lethargy to win a division title in 1974, while the Reds failed to win their division for the first time in three years.

On June 12, 1970, Ellis threw a no-hitter under the influence of LSD. Ellis–who ironically later became the coordinator of an anti-drug program in L.A.– nearly missed his game that day, but fortunately for him his girlfriend reminded him he had to pitch. He walked eight batters en route (Box Score Here).

Ellis claims that he was unable to feel the ball or clearly see the batter or catcher during the game. In an interview in a 1993 article from the San Francisco-based publication called “Lysergic World”, he recalled his now infamous no-no:

“I was in Los Angeles, and the team was playing in San Diego , but I didn’t know it. I had taken LSD….. I thought it was an off-day, that’s how come I had it in me. I took the LSD at noon. At 1pm…my girlfriend… looked at the paper and said, “Dock, you’re pitching today!”

“That’s when it was $9.50 to fly to San Diego. She got me to the airport at 3:30. I got there at 4:30, and the game started at 6:05pm. It was a twi-night doubleheader.

I can only remember bits and pieces of the game. I was psyched. I had a feeling of euphoria.

I was zeroed in on the (catcher’s) glove, but I didn’t hit the glove too much. I remember hitting a couple of batters and the bases were loaded two or three times.

The ball was small sometimes, the ball was large sometimes, sometimes I saw the catcher, sometimes I didn’t. Sometimes I tried to stare the hitter down and throw while I was looking at him. I chewed my gum until it turned to powder. They say I had about three to four fielding chances. I remember diving out of the way of a ball I thought was a line drive. I jumped, but the ball wasn’t hit hard and never reached me.”

In Ellis’ post-baseball career, he undertook several praiseworthy social projects, including working with the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections to rehabilitate black prisoners and raising money for research and the treatment of sickle-cell anemia. He also volunteered in community hospitals.

Ellis currently resides in Apple Valley, California. Sadly, he is currently fighting for his life, battling Cirrhosis of the liver without health insurance and awaiting a transplant. Ellis’ wife Hjordis has questioned the quality of the care he receives since he is uninsured and contends he often receives poor care.According to the New York Post:

A few of Ellis’ friends, led by David Reich, the son of his former agent Tom Reich, have tried to change that. They brought Ellis to UCLA Medical Center recently and Reich paid for his exams. If Ellis is found to be healthy enough, he could be placed on a liver transplant list in the upcoming weeks.

Reich has enlisted the help of Hall of Famer Joe Morgan, who is on the board of the Baseball Assistance Team (B.A.T.). Along with executive director Jim Martin, Morgan and B.A.T. have begun to help Ellis. Yankees president Randy Levine also has given Ellis a commitment that the team he helped lead to the 1976 American League pennant will aid him.

EWC salutes you, Dock Ellis, and we wish you the best and a healthy recovery

GoneQuiet wrote re: Pirates, Red Sox, Marlins talk 3-way

on 07-31-2008 6:21 AM

that is the post of the night guy-- i salute you

Remember folks,for this deal to possibly go through the biggest flake in all of MLB must approve his being traded. When Manny is involved, nothing is certain.

Tampa, give NH a call first thing in the morning and give the PBC what they want. Manny in Boston is good for you, poison for their clubhouse. The future is now, remember how Cleveland was picked to do well this year based on last years playoff success? Cmon Tampa, give the PIrates what they want.

I was wondering if the rumor about J.A Happ joining the Burg 9 from the Phillies was true...great marketing tie for the haps

I was thinking about Cocoa Puffs should I switch to Corn Flakes, instead?

J A Happ

sports.yahoo.com/.../8061

ARE YOU PEOPLE who are against this trade seriously this "baseball inept"? Not to mention Pirates inept? When I saw the alternative of the Jim Beam influenced comment about "just take all the cash and give it to free agents instead" I almost pulled a hamstring.

NH is a genius here. He not only knew how to get involved with a Manny Ramirez deal, but how to get 60% of the AL East to eat out of his hand. Contenders tend to do that sort of thing this time of year...something DL never realized. Especially when the Pirates had the bargaining chips they do/did. Bay isn't worth as much in January, by the way, let alone in left field at PNC Park.

Nady would have been gone after '09

Marte was essentially done with the Pirates after September

Bay could have been gone after '09

Grabow could have been gone after '09

So you armchair GM's that want to keep these guys would be staring straight at the 2010 season with none of the prospects we got/are getting, and no Nady/Marte/Grabow/Bay. Great strategy guys!! "But at least we'd have all those sweet free agents with that revenue sharing money and the $$ from 8,500 fans per night...". Wow.

Instead, along with the core that will remain and the handful of stars in the wings at Altoona and Indy, along with whatever emerges from the man pile we know as Snell, Gorzo, Malholm and Duke, we'll have....the 3 pitchers from the Yanks, Jeremy Hermida, maybe that future closer from Boston, and a couple more sweet prospects we'll get in this deal.....but I guess that having Nady (putting up Pujols numbers in a X man body) and Bay (off and on guy who couldn't have come on at a better time) is better than looking toward the future. You folks who disagree with this trade ASSUREDLY cried and moaned when we traded Jason Kendall and Brian Giles and if you just shook your head no after reading this you're a liar. At least Russell wouldn't have to look far to find a guy to bat 9th! And we could bank on 1 home run from Giles every 3 months!

Bottom line is, NH is my new hero and he should be yours too, Bucco fans. No matter what happens with these prospects, he's done an amazing job of getting teams to fight over his chips, getting more than market value for them, all while showing that he'll be the dominant GM in the talks, as opposed to the past guys who could have easily been mistaken with a guy trynig to sell you an imitation Rolex for whatever you want to pay.

RAISE THE JOLLY ROGER

Well put Gone...I wasn't trying to start anything with my misinformed post, I mostly just don't think he has the swing that puts 45 out of Fenway. That's all. Good information.

Rebuildingsince92: Amen, bro

No harm, no foul, Yotum. I'd actually really recommend reading that profile, as it gives a pretty interesting take on Bay as a player. Essentially, it argues that Bay as a player is greater than the sum of his attributes, and that because of high batting average on balls in play totals, and despite a LD%, he's been more lucky over the course of his career than good. Really, the author is saying that he's kind of a house of cards, and that once his tools start to fade with age -- he's now at the end of what you'd consider traditional "peak" years for most hitters -- the whole package will kind of collapse.

I'm not necessarily sure I buy the whole argument because of how unbelievably patient a hitter Bay is (4.2 pitches per plate appearance, t-5th in the NL), and that's not something that necessarily fades with age. But it's fair to say that in all likelihood, Bay has peaked as a player. We've probably seen the best we're going to see from him, and to trade him now is to do so when his value is at its apex. I'm not saying he's incapable of having a ridiculous '09 and making bank on the open market, but I think it's pretty unlikely. He's going to hit .275-.285, OBP .365-375, and slug between .520 and .530. He won't hit 45 homers. He won't hit 40. He might hit 35, and that would match a career high. At 29, if you haven't seen 35-HR power but once, you're not likely to see 45-HR power. But I bet the Green Monster does wonders for his doubles total.

In '07, Hermida led all major league right fielders in errors with 9 and had the lowest fielding percentage (.966)... Hermida may have a lot of upside at the plate, but he'll never be mistaken for Clemente in the field. Then again, aside from Ichiro, who is?