Morning links: Hap, hap, hooray

Hi Dejan,

I like the awarding of Haps for good plays/performances. Maybe Haps can be the new Stargell Stars...

Yet another take on the Nady-Marte trade. www.sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/080729&sportCat=mlb

I am afraid that Bay is going to be traded away in the same manner. Huntington says he only wants top prospects in return, but comes back with decidedly less.

For Bay's career, it would probably be more beneficial for him to go elsewhere. However, I would prefer that he stays here. By trading more big name, popular players for some unknown future, the Pirates will just further take away interest in this team.

Pirates fans love gritty players, Ryan Doumit may  not be the best catcher in the league, but he's gotta be loved by all Pirates fans.  Yes he makes the occasional mind-blunder, but the guy plays hard all the time and is turning out to be the vocal leader on the team. The diving play last night was awesome and fun to watch.  

Personally, I'd love to see Bay stay his entire career in Pittsburgh and it would be no problem if the team was vying for 1st and had a system full of prospects. But that's not the case and there's a real need to improve the depth of the minors now or we'll have 20 losing seasons (and counting). So, I hope that Bay stays, but if they have some good prospects offered for him, they've gotta take the deal.

A while back Dejan said that Altoona is our future Pittsburgh, but a little beyond that, State College is our future Pittsburgh! And that's a scary proposition.

On regards to Bay being traded.  Personally, i thought it made better sense trading bay as to trading Nady.  Move Mcclouth to left and bring back up Morgan instead of Pearce, who is obviously struggling.  That move would put nate in bay's spot in the lineup and put morgan in lead-off. Just my opinion, obviously im not Neal Huntington, but i should be.

"bring back up Morgan instead of Pearce, who is obviously struggling.  That move would put nate in bay's spot in the lineup and put morgan in lead-off. Just my opinion, obviously im not Neal Huntington, but i should be."

An armchair GM patting himself on the back because he suggested putting Nyjer Morgan in the starting lineup?  Priceless.  Please let us know when your receive your first paycheck from a MLB team STLRFANRC...you are destined for greatness.

Keep Bay.  Keep Wilson.  

It makes sense both from a team-building standpoint, if the money is going to be there as we've been assured it is, and from staying-competitive-now standpoint.  

It's also good from a purely business standpoint, too to have recognized players that people come to the park to see.  This ball club is the most interesting one that they've put on the field in years and there quite a few pieces that we can build around.  But at some point, we have to think about keeping guys past free agency.  

Of course, we need pitching -- but can't we get it without giving up the heart of the team?

I think everyone in Pirate Land needs to come back to the real world about X Nady.  It seems that people are perceiving him as a perennial all-star.  the reality is that his career numbers are extremely ordinary.  combine that with the fact that he is often nicked with minor injuries and i think the Pirates were lucky to get what they got!  keep in mind that X's first year with PBC his 20 hr's and 72 rbi - nearly doubled his previous career high!

And while Marte is a servicable reliever - his is just a middle relief pitcher.  

Bay is the one to be concerned about.  in his down year he put up better numbers than X's career year!  with more than 30 hr's and 100 rbi each of the two prior years.  

Trading Bay is the right move. It's a shame he can't bring ONE top tier prospect? I know he had a terrible 2007 but every other year has been outstanding.The Rays may be playing it smart though. They may not be putting all their eggs into this year's basket to try and win it this year. If they keep all their prospects they will be a dangerous team for years to come.

STLFANRC- I agree on Doumit. I saw his name pop up in rumors yesterday that the Marlins are after him. I think if the Pirates are to have "untouchables" it should be Doumit, McLouth and Maholm.

Bring up Morgan...no way!

The man just can't hit.  I was in Allentown (Lehigh Valley) to see Indianapolis play a three game series a month or so ago and, as I write this I'm in a motel room in Toledo, where the Indians are playing the Mud Hens.  (I guess this is why I use the name "Minor Leaguer.")

It seems like all Nyjer does it try to bunt, and -- even with his great speed -- he gets thrown out, because the opponents are waiting for the bunts.  

For a leadoff hitter he doesn't get on base enought, and you sure don't want him coming up with runners on base.

By the way...I got to see Ross Ohlendorf's debut game last night.  He gave up a few HRs, as cited in the Notebook, however one run came in as a result of a ball that got by the firstbaseman Ryan Mulhern (he shoulda had it).  At least he threw strikes, and he hit 94 - 95 on the gun a few times.

In a recent Q&A, didn't somebody write something to the effect of McLouth being a terrible centerfielder? They probably thought it was Van Slyke making that Mays-esque catch last night. I guess zero errors and plenty of highlight reel catches just aren't good enough for some people.

I'm going to stop just short of calling Matt Freed's photo of Doumit, diving to tag Stewart last night but it was a great picture. And, at the same time, I almost cried when I saw it - and I'll tell you why.

(Alright, Baywatch, come on, tell us: We're on baited breath, oats have been salted ...)

I see Mientkiewicz all over it. Tears of joy, for the impact he's had on Doumit and indeed the way this team plays in just the short while he's been here; tears of sadness because he may be moving on, too.

He won't bring the same return that Bay or Wilson will, but can it be he has been the most valuable player this year just because of the fire he has lit under our team? And, as Dejan has pointed out, he doesn't just talk it up ... he can back it up. The man's a high on-base percentage, waiting to happen.

OK, you gotta have Nate as co-MVP, but when it comes to intangibles, I don't think I'm swapping Dirty Doug for A-Rod; or even Pete Rose in his heyday ... Charlie Hustle ain't got nothing on him.

I could see why any team in a playoff hunt would want to have him.

It was Mattenat in the Pirates' chat with the candlestick.

The moron claims that McLouth plays the worst center field in baseball.

48JJ... that pearlman article is sooooo of any factual base. I mean the guys fails to mention that we have historically owned the Yankees in trading deals:

Enrique Wilson for Marte

Luis Sojo for John Grabow

Rick Rhoden for Doug Drabek

I mean no mention of the positive history we have on those overspending neanderthals. He also incorrectly states that Littlefield turns down Wells for Howard (any avid Pirates fan knows it was for Benson) and that Tabata is more likely to be Mike Quinn then Manny Ramirez.

We need to stop reading ESPN until two years after deals. As for Bay, I love the guy and want him in black and gold his whole career, but while we might not get any of Tampa's top 4 prospects (David Price, Evan Longoria, Jake McGee, Wade Davis), Their no 5 Reid Brignac would be a no 1 in most systems, and if we can get him, Jeff Niemann (no 7, a guy who could develop into a frontline starter) and a stop-gap guy like JP Howell, I would love to see the buccos make a trade. That being said we need to back off the bucs for a bit and not listen to idiots like Pearlman, Olney and others

Trading Bay, unless we're overpaid, is stupid.  There's no one pushing him from AAA.  No reason to trade him unless we're overwhelmed.  

I see Romak played 1B at Altoona last night.  Anyone know if he played that at all In Lynchburg this year?

I think I've been reading this blog too much.

Last night, I dreamed that the Bucs drafted a 7' OF. And in the dream, I was complaining that his strike zone has *got* to be too big for him to be effective at the plate...

Morgan is a nice fit as a 4th or 5th outfielder. He is not the kind of player who is going to start, not even for the Pirates.

However, neither is Steve Pearce who looks really out of his element. The fact is I think bringing up Morgan is the right call, but to be in that 4th outfielder role behind a real professional like Michaels - at least until either Pearce, McCutchen, or other player establishes themselves as consistently productive in AAA ball. That or someone else better is acquired. Bringing up one of these prospects while they are stuggling to hit .270 in AAA is only going to prolong the agony for the MLB club.

So many things to comment on this morning....

The Page 2 stuff is supposedly funny which I knew when I provided the link. I still don't like the fact that Nady & Marte were traded a week before the deadline in package deal no less. Huntington is going for depth, not top quality. That is in direct contrast to statements made earlier. That's also what I think he's going to do if Bay gets traded.

Bay - he wants to stay in Pittsburgh and is healthy and producing again and not yet 30. Keep him as the star player (which he's likely to end sharing with Doumit & McLouth as they continue to impress) and get the pitching fixed. Trading Bay for minor league depth is not going to make the losing streak end. After all, the Pirates are not known for being good talent evaluators or talent developers so this minor league depth thing is a shot in the dark right now.

Mientkiewicz - he's had a really good impact on this team. I love the way he plays the game. No one would ever question his effort. In fact, this team is 10 x better than the previous 2 seasons when effort could be called into question frequently.

Morgan - I don't want to see him in Pittsburgh. I don't care how fast he is when he can't get on base. Davis was fast too, but I don't think too many people were concerned when he was traded. He hasn't done much since either.

Any decent free agent pitchers available this off-season that the Priates should try to get? Or should the team wait to see which of our suspect pitchers (Duke, Gorzelanny, Dumatrait, Snell, Ohlendorf, Karstens) can develop as good starters?

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

For an actually funny buccos page 2 story

Free agent SP the buccos should sign not named Matt Morris:

C.C. Sabathia (would be a nice place to spend the money we supposedly have had for the last 2 years)

Romack started playing first base a few weeks back at Lynchburg...

What a game Rivas had last night, not only at the plate, but some fine fielding as well. That double play started by Bautista later in the game was as fine a play as we'll see all year in the infield.  It is amazing how much different a player he is when he is not at short.

It's about time the positive talk about Dougie Fresh started. He has had an ENORMOUS impact on Doumit and many others. I was thrilled to read that NH is talking to him about his future. Keep him here.

If you watched replays of that strange play in the top of the 6th you will see Dougie hustling his you know what off after he released the ball to Rivas. He was ready to back up 3rd, then he realized where the play was headed and he was at the plate as Doumit lunged for Stewart. He is another reason why we should start the youth movement now by trading Bay, Jack, Grabow and LaRoche. Let these young kids have a couple of months with Doug, Doumit and Nate and learn how real ballplayers play the game.

Pgher in Leverkusen -

Great thought on haps = Stargell Stars. I still have one of those black pillbox caps with a couple of Stargell Stars on the front.

Maybe DK can commission an actual stick-on token for the hap. It can be in the shape of a ball cap (call it the "hap cap;" seems a logical descriptive name) with a tiny "H" on it where the "P" is on the Pirate cap. Players earning one can stick it on their real game cap. And players who have not earned one could justifiably be termed "hapless." Okay, I can sense already that DK will deny me any soup for a year after this.

(Note: I'm not sure if the MLB uniform code these days allows placing of stuff like that on caps. I always wondered if Stargell had to get permission for those to be worn back in the day.)

I would have loved to have seen Rivas hit for the cycle.  I also say keep Bay, Wilson & whatever they have to cough up to keep Mientkiewicz, DO IT.  He has been a phenomenal asset to this team in more ways than one, and any future players can only benefit from playing with a guy like him.  And please note the Armchair GM is a Steeler fan (STLRFANRC), hence the ridiculous statement....

They should trade Bay and/or Wilson only if they can get top prospects in return for them.  

I'm surprised the Red Sox haven't added anybody, given that the Yanks and Angels both upgraded their teams, and the Rays are still looking.  They would be an interesting destination for Jack Wilson.  And they have prospects.

SandlotWizard -

>>They should trade Bay and/or Wilson only if they can get top prospects in return for them.<<

Exactly. I'd love to see both of them stay around long term. But I'm okay with trading them if we get very good value. What I gather from reading much of the stuff here is that the Rays have a bushel basket full of top prospects. If NH feels he can get something OUTSTANDING right now for Bay, and by that I mean something that no one else can ever offer, then go ahead and trade now. Otherwise, why not wait, try to sign Bay to an extension and move him later (off season or next year) when there may be more teams interested? No one expects Bay to stop hitting over the next two months, so his value is not going to decline except by virtue of having only one year left. If the Rays are dealing with the idea of the future - and not just this year - they ought to still be interested during the winter.

Something I have been wondering aobut regarding Mienkiewicz and a possible trade: what's the harm in trading him now, getting something modest for him in exchange for August-September, and then trying to bring him back next year? After all, he's a free agent again. Would trading him now turn him against the Pirates and make him any less likely to re-sign with us than he would have anyway?

Totally agree with you G-man.  I suspect the meeting that Hunnington had with DK might have gone along those lines.  Mike Williams resigned a couple years back.

Hap, hap, hooray indeed.  The team continues to run hot and cold but if they could just get the starting pitchers to have ERA's under 5 for the rest of season they could win more consistently.  Seems like every time I look the Bucs are down 3 or more in the first.  As for trades, keep Bay and even more so Wilson.  We saw what happens when Wilson is out this season.  Nady wasn't likely to stay past next year and Marte was not a long-term answer for the pen so I do not see that trade as awful.  However, trading too many established players for prospects puts the team back several years unless the prospects develop quickly.  Prospects are always a gamble.

Very good point, G-Man, though I'd hate to see him go under any circumstances ... naw, you're right: If we can get a lower-rounder that turns out great like Nate. I was looking at Doug's stats ... he's definitely hit for much higher average his last three years in the bigs (KC, NY, 'Burgh - all off the bench. Again, I would think ANY club would want him. Hopefully, we want him and KEEP HIM in some capacity.

The rumors I'm reading about Bay are mostly with the Rays, which is good because they have  the best collection of pitching prospects.  

You have to think Price is off-limits, but maybe they'd part with Wade Davis fronting a package for Bay.  If they could get Davis and the SS Bringac, I would be thrilled.  And for Bay, they SHOULD get a package like that.  

Only if the price is right, Neal.

On Bay I really don't see how the market would increase over the summer from where it might be today or tomorrow. Playoff desparation should typically bring out the crazy offers and I think if we try and unload a guy the year before they hit free agency, that the offers will be lower since we have to deal a guy at that point or get two late first round picks.

I think that if we can get 3 top 10 prospects from Tampa and a stopgap major league pitcher that we have to move on that deal for Bay. Assuming one of them is Brignac, then we can trade Jack Wilson in the offseason for a solid prospect at any position

I've always wondered if GMs ever talked it over with a player before the trading deadline. Something like, " We really want you to play here, but we could get some prospects and you could get a shot at a WS. Would you consider re-signing with us next year if we trade you now?"

I agree with JAL that Jack Wilson is a key component to this team. He should only go for fantastic prospects if they've decided to blow it up and start over.

I guess at this point, the only untouchables are McLouth, Doumit, & maybe Maholm? Kinda surprised that no one's been making inqueries about LaRoche, the way he'd been hitting before his injuries. Does that mean he's an untouchable, too, or just that no one offered?

This is off topic (well, it is about baseball), but it's an amazing story from out here on the fringes of Pirateland. I'd think he'd be a great candidate for throwing out the first pitch of a Pirates game...

www.pennlive.com/.../index.ssf

ydr.inyork.com/ci_10017226

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Link to Reid Brignac's AAA numbers

(keep in mind he is supposedly of Jack Wilson's defensive ilk, and is only 22)

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Link to Wade Davis's AAA numbers

(is in their top 4, so per Dejan's notebook today that would likely put him out of the offer. Power pitcher would be a frontline guy here, but the baseball America projection for 2K8 has him as a no 4 in Tampa in 2011)

web.minorleaguebaseball.com/.../stats.jsp

Link to Jeff Niemann's AAA numbers

(Is really tall SP, Pitches like Chris Young though not Randy Johnson. Batters are hitting only .221 against this guy and his Ks to walks are above 2.0. Biggest problem is he is already 25 with no MLB experience, but that means we got him till he turns 32ish)

If we can get two of these three and then get a guy with major league experience that would have to be a no-brainer for the buccos. As a fan I would be proud of the trade with no second thoughts. If we don't get two of these three, we'd better be getting Price

For all those who say we can just hold onto Bay and trade him next year, take a look at the difference in the trade returns for Mark Texiera last year and this year. The Rangers got Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Elvis Andrus, two of the top players in the Braves system last year (along with 3 other prospects). Tex still had one year left on his deal, so the Braves were willing to give up more.

Now, flash forward to this year and the Braves trade Texiera to the Angels for Casey Kotchman and a mid-level relief prospect. That is a huge downgrade in terms of quality and quantity of prospects, with only a one year difference between trades.

So, I really believe that if we are going to trade Bay, now is the time to do it. If teams aren't willing to give up their top prospect today for Bay, odds are they aren't going to offer him up in December either. Given the depth of the Rays system, they must be the center of our negotiations.

Bay, Wilson, Grabow, Nady, Marte:  who cares!  How about a reality check?  Borrowing and paraphrasing from Branch Rickey:

"We stunk with yunz.  We can stink just as bad without yunz."

Let's start digging out of this interminable hole.  Give me some reason to hope.  Let me dream of the futures of Lincoln, McCutchen (both of them) Tabata and Alvarez (sign him, please!), rather than dwell on the present bunch of bozos.  Bay and Wilson will be well past their primes before we see any signs of life at PNC, so what difference does it make if they stay or go?  One gigantic HAP for Neal Huntington for doing something - anything.

Bring Morgan up for Pearce? C'mon, STLRFANRC! Have you ever heard of something called 'productive outs'. How many SAC Fly RBI's has the guy produced? Making an out is one thing, getting the run across the plate is another.

And another thing, he was called up on Saturday and hasn't been with the PBC for a week. Give him a chance!

For the McLouth complainers, give it a rest, the guy produces. As far as I know, I have yet to see MLB implement 'style points' for position players performance in the field outside of errors. The last I checked he has none. Funny to hear a so-called Bucs fan slamming Nate's performance in the field when the National Media that downplays Pirates baseball talk of McLouth as a Gold Glove candidate. Geesh!

Piggybacking on Graham Kooce's post, here are full career stats for each of those 3 Ray's prospects.

Brignac:

www.thebaseballcube.com/.../Reid-Brignac.shtml

Davis:

www.thebaseballcube.com/.../Wade-Davis.shtml

Niemann:

www.thebaseballcube.com/.../Jeff-Niemann.shtml

I agree with his thoughts, if the Pirates can land any 2 of these 3, trading Bay would be worth it. Brignac would fill a need as a middle infielder and either Niemann or Davis would instantly become our #1 pitching prospect. According to the Sports Illustrated website, the odds of a Bucs/Rays deal now stands at 50/50. Two of those 3 and another mid-tier prospect or two and I'd seal the deal.

One last thing on the let's not talk about Nady and Marte anymore kick I am on today...

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

great article showing 9 trades though to be no doubt-about it locks for the team getting the major league talent, but now looking stupid

GrahamKoonce'ssweetpackagedeal -

    I understand what you mean about the market value of Bay not necessarily being higher in the off season as opposed to today. If some contending team feels this year is their limited window of opportunity, they might offer the moon. But, so far we have not seen/heard anything like that. If we were to wait and trade Bay in the offseason, his market value might still be the same but he might appeal to more teams at a time when every team is trying to improve and teams are replacing players lost to free agency. Thus, we could have more choices, not just one or two teams. I also feel that signing Bay to an extension might, in and of itself, increase his trade value.

pirateradio - I am very curious about what will become of LaRoche. Frankly, I am not surprised he hasn't been subject of trade rumors simply due to his history of only hitting from June onward. If he does not get a good start out of the blocks next spring, I suspect the Bucs will lose him to free agency. In that scenario,I wonder what kind of FA offers he will attract. He seems like a great guy, good teammate and all, but he just has a huge downside.

Bravo to waittilnextyear for being realistic. The Trib guy (if I may mention the inferior rival paper) today was spot on when he talked to Eyechart and Minky just shook his head. It will indeed take years to get those 28-35 prospects into the system and by then Bay, Wilson, LaRoche, Sanchez will all be gone and our young hotshots like Doumit and Nate will be, if not already gone, trade bait for more pieces. I think come another five years we will be able to contend; probably not division winners yet, but scrapping for a wild card. Any of you that think it'll happen if we just hold onto Jack and Bay and somebody will swap us a five-time all-star for Van Benschoten, and by golly then we'll be in the series by 2010, is obviously having way too many Olde Frothingsloshes.

One more thing - ain't it great to see all this Pirate passion three days after Steelers camp opened?

G-Man, you beat me to saying that no one is beating the door down for LaRoche because, let's face it, who would be eager to take a guy who can't produce the first half of the year?  And Cisco Kid, I LOVE LOVE LOVE to see Pirates Passion, ESPECIALLY after training camp has opened...I die from November until PirateFest...

Yes, we are seeing an amazing display of Pirates passion and interest by way of this blog. Go to the overeall blogs home page and look at the statistics. The PBC blog has more comments than all the other blogs - incuding Empty Netters - combined. And the PBC blog has only been in busines a few weeks.