Two pitchers changed in trade; Pearce up

Rumored to be Daniel McCutchen and Jeff Karstens instead of Coke and Kontos

Dejan,

I just read that the other new name is Jeff Karstens.  I also read that the 2 names that are out are Coke and Kontos.  

DK,

NYPost reporting Jeff Karstens

www.rotoworld.com/.../player_main.aspx

blogs.nypost.com/.../mccutchen_karst.html

"The package the YankeesNew York Yankees surrendered for Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte is not as originally reported. It is fronted by outfielder Jose Tabata and pitcher Ross Ohlendorf, but the other two pitchers the Yanks gave up in the trade were Jeff Karstens and Daniel McCutchen.

The original reports had Phil Coke and George Kontos as the other two pitchers the Yanks were surrendering as part of the deal, which was concluded Friday pending physicals.

McCutchen, who turns 26 in September, was 8-9 with a 3.14 ERA between Double- and Triple-A this season. He is known as a hard worker who really elevated his stock this year. But he also was suspended 50 games by the Commissioners Office for taking a performance-enhancing substance in 2006.

Karstens, who also turns 26 in September, pitched for the Yankees in 2006-2007, going 3-5 with a 5.65 ERA in 15 appearances, including nine starts. He has battled injuries much of the last two seasons and was 6-4 with a 3.80 in 12 Triple-A starts this season. However, the Yanks considered him expendable because many other starts had bypassed him on the depth chart, including Darrell Rasner, who in style is most like Karstens.

Tabata, a Double-A outfielder, and Ohlendorf, starting at Triple-A, were clearly the main two pieces for the Pirates"

Ugh.

Its nice to add McCutchen, but Kontos had the most upside in the deal among those pitchers.  Karstens is another journeyman.  

Is this an adjustment to the deal because of the physicals, or were the original reports mistaken?

Doesn't this trade look a little better, though? These guys are 26, but they seem to be having decent AAA years, and maybe one of these guys are ready to take off.

Karstens is 25.  He is 6-2 in his last 10 starts at AAA averaging 6 IP per start.  His overall WHIP @SWB is 1.18.  

McCutchen actually looks intriguing at second glance.  

He's probably a better prospect than Kontos, and Karstens is further along than Coke but a similar guy.

If McCutchen could be a #3 or 4 starter, thats not bad.  

Looks like we actually picked up 2 pitchers that may be ready to try to crack the rotation.  Maybe somebody could help me out on this one, but I would think that now 3 out of the 4 pieces of this trade will have to be added to 40 man roster.

So, maybe they will bring up Karstens and Pearce?

Seeing this new development is a pleasant surprise.  McCutchen & Karstens are much better than Coke & Kontos.  Karstens was very good until Joe Torre over-used him.  If he can get back to his previous form, then the Bucs will be far better off.

The deal looks better than it did.  I would have preferred Karonta over Karstens but you can't always get what you want, I guess.  Its better than it looked last night but it still hinges on whether a nineteen year old (assuming he really is nineteen), who may or may not want to play ball, with an extensive injury history puts it together.  That's a really big if but only time will tell.

So who do you bring up to replace the 2 that are gone?

Wow does this trade ever look better... kinda makes you wonder why the names changed? Anybody know?

I read some Yankees blogs and the Yankee fans sound like they think we got the better end of the trade.

Now the question is who do the Pirates bring up from Indy to replace Nady?  I think Pearce is the most logical candidate as he was some what productive during his September call up.  However, he will NEED to play every day; unlike the way he was handled under Tracy.......

   Jeer if you want, but the correct price for Nady and Marte, especially with the Yankees struggling to get into the playoffs, should be Joba Chamberlain.

   The switch of pitchers makes it a little better, but does anyone have the real story on Tabata? We know he's unproven and inexperienced, also that he's injured for the past month. So how much talent can we be assured he possesses? On top of all that, he was suspended for

bad behavior including fighting with a teammate, and is said to be in love with himself although he's done nothing so far. What's the real scoop on him?

Wow, sorry.  I meant Kontos.  I appear to be inept at names.

One thing that the last 4 weeks has made clear is that the Pirates had a lack of depth, particularly with starting pitchers, as evidenced by Jimmy Barthmeier (sp) and company. Time will tell whether any of these guys will be able to help the Pirates, but at least there will be a few alternatives if Herrara and Van Benschoeten cannot last more than 2 innings per start. With the emergence of McClouth and the re-emergence of Bay, Nady was a luxury a team like the Pirates cannot afford with such a shallow rotation. And no way do the Bucs re-sign Marte. So I see this as a move to right a listing ship, not to make it the fastest ship on the sea. Maybe the right move at the right time. We shall see.

Baseball America says that Yanks paid "a hefty price" in the deal, and that was in analyzing the deal including Kontos and Coke.  

The deal with McCutchen and Karstens is better.

I have to say I agree with the sentiments - it definitely sounds like the two guys we got are better than the two rumored.   I could be completely wrong on this, but it sounds like based on what I've read online that we got a slight upgrade and these guys seem more major-league ready.

Kontos seemed to be the biggest prospect of the bunch.  I'm disappointed he isn't still in the deal.  I'm admittedly not a scout and it's way too early to judge trades, but Coke and Kontos seemed to strike out more guys then McCutchen and Karstens.  My judgement is really based on that alone.

Someone else got a reason why McCutchen and Karstens are better?

I agree the deal looks a bit better, but if someone showed me the Yankee prospect names, I would have expected Nady and Grabow vice Marte.  

Expected at least 1 high end for each Nady and Marte.  Instead it looks like 1 high end and three "others."

So I still want to know why Neil backed off.

Well, alright! I know this might seem like small talk compared to the trade hoopla, but I was able to replace my profile photo with one of the X man that I took in Houston before the game Wednesday. It was cropped out of a picture of The Greatest Outfield running together. I know, it's itty bitty in that Avatar photo thing but it's my little tribute to the X-Man. And also a big "alright" to the new trade look. Everybody calm down, Neilypoo is still our man!

Chamberlain? Right... like the Yanks were gonna deal him... that wouldnt have helped their playoff cause.

Secondly, the Pirates have NO ONE who could bring someone like chamberlain to Pittsburgh...

On a side note, did anyone see Alby Oxenreiter on the Fedko Zone show last night?  Man that was hilarious - he was clearly thrown into the fire and didn't seem to know much about the guys we got.

He called Tabata 'the top minor league prospect in baseball' (seriously) and he called Ohlendorf the #9 prospect in baseball.  Clearly he didn't know that he was the #9 rated prospect in the Yankees system only, not all of baseball...not sure where he came up with the top prospect in baseball stuff about Tabata.

McCutchen's first year of pro ball was 2006.  Does he have to be added to the 40 man?  

@ancient fan Chamberlain?!  In what world do the Yankees give up their #1 starter, who also happens to be 22 and throw 96 miles an hour for a setup man and a guy that's only been a full-time starter for one year?  Come on, be a little reasonable.  The Pirates got a lot of pitching depth with reasonable upside and a kid who has superstar upside.  If they work out, the Buccos did great.  If they don't, the Pirates didn't lose anyone that would have been on the team when we'll be successful.  I don't know what else was out there, but it seems like a decent return.

by the Sea - I agree, I was hoping for at least Ian Kennedy to be a part of the deal.

Ancient - Not sure about Tabata.  I've seen everything you've typed.  The only other thing I seemed to see out there was that he is a TRUE five-tool player.  His hitting numbers are good and he seems to be able to steal some bases (not like the Pirates would ever utilize that, though).  If he's projected as a five-tool guy, I'm sure his arm is decent if those reports are correct.  But other than that, I'm not too sure.

I'm encouraged by the fact that he's only 20 - seems like a lot of the pitchers we got are older.  Even if he struggles for a couple of years, he'll still be pretty young.

Pirates press notes confirm Pearce has been recalled. No indication on there who will be the 25th player, and the 25 man roster hasn't been updated yet. I looked at the Pirates 40 man roster, and Karstens and Ohlendorf have been added to the 40 man roster. It seems that there are 39 listed there. I'm drawing a blank on who #40 was, because I know we WERE carrying 40.

Do they plan to give Ohlendorf a shot in the rotation or will he replace Marte in the bullpen?

Its crazy to think that Grabow and Yates will be closing games.  Yikes!

I wouldn't give the Cy Young to Joba, just yet. Do Mussina, Wang, and Pettite know he's the Yankees number one starter? In all fairness though, those guys can dominate, but also have had their problems.Chamberlain is the Yankees future.

Neal - you're still fired.

wow, an actually good trade. its been so many years. but i like this tabata guy. he's said to be a legit five tool player. and as many have called him, "a little manny ramirez", also the number 34 ranked prospect in all of baseball.   McCutchen and Karstens appear to be close to major league ready and they both are rumored to have good stuff, and i know the stats are nice. Olendorf is like tyler yates, but he can and probably will be a starter. We definetly got the better end of the deal for 2 players good player at peak value that would have been gone in a year anyway. Wonderful trade PBC. =]

Well, Thunder, Dejan says Nyjer Morgan is the one off the roster. Error or has he been traded?

AramisRamirez=HOF,

I was thinking McAlister - but maybe they wanted someone above A ball.

I noticed that Morgan was off the 40-man roster on the Pirates site over a week ago.  I couldn't find any reports saying he was removed, assumed it was an error, and subsequently forgot about it.  Not sure if that means anything, but it didn't happen within the last day or two.

WAG here, considering that Morgan is still shown on Indy's active roster, but they show him as NOT being on the 40 man roster, I see one scenario. He probably cleared major league waivers recently, and the Pirates likely outrighted his contract to Indy. Not that I have anything to back this up.

Indy may have a serious shortage of outfielders if Morgan were to be traded.

Whatever you get for Morgan is a bonus.  Nice player but never a starter or a star.  One thing the team has is an abundance of CF'ers.

Morgan to TB for ?  TB could use a real center fielder, shifting Upton(I still weep when I see his name)  to right. Nyjer would be a nice piece for that team.  

Something has to be in the works.  I don't see the Pirates removing Nyjer just to make room for new players.  I'm kind of excited to see Pearce.  He had a great year last year but I didn't get to see him much once he was called up last year.

Dejan says PBC confirms it is an error with Morgan. But, they will have to add McCuthen and drop somebody, won't they?

That's a pretty big clerical error when Morgan's agent even though he was off the 40 man roster.

Maybe agents don't always keep up to date with players until it comes time to sign a contract?

Kind of interesting that the Pirates did not promote Andrew McCutcheon.  You bring him up and put his 6.4 speed in the leadoff spot and move McClouth to the 3 hole, Doumit 4, Bay 5 and LaRoche 6. If McCutcheon can produce, it gives you the first legitimate leadoff guy in years. The Bucs must want to be careful with him. Pearce has not so far shown the consistent power he showed last year.

On another subject, I don't know if this trade will be good or bad, but keep in mind that these ESPN pipsqueaks like Buster Olney and company think everything the Yankees and Red Sox do is clever.  

Dejan, it's good to see you! You may have noticed I have been speaking for you. Is it all better in Bucco Land, today?

Yeah I don't put too much weight in what Olney has to say.  Before the pitchers changed Keith Law (who actually knows a thing or two about prospects) said the deal was decent for the Pirates.  They removed what he said from the site due to the pitchers changing.  I'd like to see what he and Baseball America says about it.

Yeah, I'm sure ESPN will still hand it to the Yankees! I'm glad I was there to hear Maz's home run on the radio (yeah radio, it was different times!).

Batavia, as much as I would like to see McCutcheon...he's just not ready for the bigs yet.  He could have 4.6 speed, but it doesn't matter if he doesn't put bat to ball.

I initially liked the trade.  Now, I like it even more.  Kudos to N.H. for pulling the trigger.  And a big "screw you" to the so called experts in Bristol who will never like anything the Bucs do because they're in the wrong market.  If you listen to them, we gave up Clemente and Tekulve for Jeff Tabaka and Felix Fermin.

The re-working is horrific.  Karstens (especially) and McCutchen have very little upside.  Ohlendorf not much either.  Kontos did, and I thought Coke might have been an interesting late-bloomer.

I'm real curious to find out the reason for the switcheroo.

John Manuel at BaseballAmerica says that most scouts like McCutchen's "toughness" and agree with the Yankees who saw him as a "championship caliber middle reliever or back-of-the-rotation starter". I think the PBC pitcher's need some toughness, and I'm assuming it's mental toughness they mean.

Put me down as a firm 'No' on if they got enough.  I've got so many objections, I don't even know where to begin.

1.  The package deal was awful.  NH would have done better to deal them individually and would have had prospects from 2 organizations to choose from instead of just one team with a mediocre farm system.

2.  The potential of adding draft picks with the loss of Marte via free agency would have been preferable.  I would have rather rolled the dice with picks next year than what they got in return.  

3.  By not including someone like Ian Kennedy or Hughes (although by all accounts the Yankess will not deal for anyone) make this a big fat zero.  I know that the NH wants to add depth, but by adding depth he just diluted his return on his best two assets.  I'd rather have had Kennedy over the combo of Olendorf/Karstens.

4.  I know that the cupboard is bare.  I get it.  I know David K LIttlefield left them with nothing.  And I'm reminded of it every time that that we run Taubenheim/Bartheimer/JVB/Harerra out to the mound.  But nobody wins a world series by having minor league depth.  And nobody 'wins' trades like this by adding depth.  You do it by adding high ceiling guys.  And it looks like Tabata is the only one in that category, and he might be more of a head case than a high ceiling guy.

Now I guess I just have to sit and wait until 8/15.  Because if they don't sign Alvarez, then I really will have lost all faith in this time.  And I know, like a lot of you, I've said that way too many times to count.  But if they let Alvarez walk, I mean it.  I'm done.

This trade looked terrible last night, and I'm not sure if I like it better or worse now.  Replacing Coke with McCutchen is a likely upgrade - Coke's still pitching in AA at age 26 and will probably never be an effective MLB starter.  Replacing Kontos with Karstens?  Karstens has MLB experience, but it's not good.  His overall 5.65 ERA would look all right on the Pirates, but his 11.05 ERA in 2007 suggests that MLB hitters figured him out.  He had a broken fibula that year, but his numbers were terrible both before the injury and after returning from rehab assignments.  Kontos had a higher upside, probably.  Today's version looks like 3 instead of 2 guys who might  get it together before they're too old.  More mud to throw on the wall.

BTW, what do people mean by a "5-tool player?"

We still don't know who coming up with Pearce yet, do we? Scranton-Wilkes Barre played at home, so they don't have to far to travel.

I have no personal way of knowing whether McCutcheon is ready or not, other than reading some of the information that is out there that suggests that he is. A .280 BA is not overwhelming for a guy with his pedigree. However, it strikes me that Steve Peace is not putting the bat on the ball either. They obviously feel McCutcheon could benefit from more time at AAA.  

For those advocating holding onto Marte and getting draft picks instead, keep in mind that this strategy is both risky and costly.  First and second round picks are more exepensive as they command large signing bonuses.   As we know they are a crapshoot....Bradley, Bullington etc.  Trading for prospects means you pay the major league minimums as the other team has paid the signing bonus.  Also, trading for prospects is a safer bet as these players have a track record and are less of a risk.  Say what you want but this trade brought 3 pitchers who will all likely pitch at PNC park one day.  Not always (or in the Pirates case often) true.

"5 tool" means having it all. I think it's power, speed, throwing arm, and what's left, maybe average and fielding?

True of the draft that is.

a year ago the yankees never would have traded tabata for nady. let's not let 400 at bats change everything. tabata is the kind of guy the bucs should be targeting, attitude problems notwithstanding. young, lots of upside, a possible superstar. maybe he'll be the next chad hermansen, but the talent is there. ohlendorf is a cheap power arm for the bullpen and muccutchen part 2 looks like solid back of the rotation material. despite his struggles this year pearce deserves a look in RF. he could very well put up 75% of nady's production at 10% of the price.

I think someone was asking why the pitchers were changed.....

According to the NY Post:

The original trade did have Phil Coke George Kontos in it, but the Pirates had enough concerns about the medical reports on Kontos and Coke that they decided to do Karstens and McCutchen instead.

If anyone is still interested in the X-man, he's batting seventh in the Yanks lineup and playing LF today. Game starts in a half hour on Fox.

I can hardly imagine that less than two weeks after giving birth to another child, Nady is excited about moving to New York. He's moving from the reportedly-fantastic Buccos clubhouse to the stingy-businesslike atmosphere of the Yankees. Not to mention he's joining the Yankees in the middle of a three game series at FENWAY PARK! I, for one, feel sorry for Nady and hope he always remember how much fans here liked him...

SeanE, I agree with your philosophy. It's like buying a year-old car instead of a brand new one. Sure, the new one is a little sexier and there's a chance it will be the next best thing, but why not get a slightly used one, with more certainty about what you'll get, and have someone else pay for the depreciation (i.e., signing bonus). It's a smart strategy. Of course, you still need the prospects to pan out, but getting three pitchers who are at least as good, if not better than a majority of our minor league talent, plus an upside outfielder-- not a bad strategy. Certainly something DL never would have done.

hey neal... brian cashman called ... he says he needs his car washed too

what a friggin joke .....

hey neal...brian cashman just called ... he says he needs his car washed too

what a friggin joke ....

People also need to keep in mind that the Yankees were offered Soriano for Tabata straight up last year.....and said no.  Did Littlefield EVER trade for a prospect of this caliber?

Yeah, Wikipedia says 5 tools are average, power, baserunning, fielding, and throwing. Examples given are Willie Mays, Barry Bonds, and Alex Rodriguez.

Sean E

chris duffy was once a cant miss prospect too

end of story

So, if scouts see Tabata as a 5 tool player, he certainly seems worth any risk in spite of his attitude.

RON D,this is the kind of baseball trades we have been needing.  Had we had more of these instead of the firesales dave littlebrain made, we would be a much better ball club right now, niice big step in the right direction PBC.

Duffy was never a can't miss prospect.  There are no such things.  Only saying is that DL never got back high end prospects when he traded players.  He never took risks.  Hunnington is.  Were Nady or Marte going to be here when this team was ready to compete..no.

All teams are looking for legit starting pitching. No GM will give up front end guys for an 20-80 outfielder and middle relief. Those are just the facts.Bad pitchers are make 8-10 mil (thnak you Kris Benson) So to get 3 mlb pitchers whether they start or bullpen depth trhat is a score. Add Tabata, whose value right now is as low as it could be. If he comes back strong next year and is humbled by the trade, well we have a great chip to trade if Pearce and A-Mac work out. Doug Drabek ain't walking in that dooor, Zane Smith ain't walking in that door

As I posted last night....

*** If Jon Rauch lands one the making of a career utility IF in Emilio Bonifacio....What exactly was the expectation level for a player in return for Marte? Joba Chamberlain? Jay Bruce? Evan Longoria? C'mon now. ***

Splitting up Marte and Nady wouldn't have landed us a plethora of talent. And as the revised deal goes....this is probably the best the Bucco's were offered. If you was a GM would you throw the bank at a player with a history of injury problems? One who has been up top for 7 years and has only managed to play more than 125 once in his entire career?

And who is to say he would still land us a sweet compensatory pick next year knowing that? Alot of things could go wrong from now till then. Just look at our early 90's clone of the Atlanta Braves young pitching staff....huge expectations. Or the reincarnation of Pops in LaRoche....huge expectations. Who saw Bay's year last season coming on? Please....the casuals need to tone it down a bit.

Marte is a few month rental....you expected to land a trade like the CC Sabathia  one for he? Get a clue. Again resort back to my early comment from last night posted up above.

sorry boys -- dont buy it...just making trades for the sake of making them doesnt get it done-- they could have received more bonafide guys if they waited.... plus the mainthing is toget pitching-- not another figgin OF-- this team has enough tools offensively and defense wise to be a wildcard-- but wont be with its little league pitching staf... why throw away what you do well to be mediocre in multiple phases of the game.....dont see the reasoning..if you wnat to trade the x man--- or another position player-- make what you get what you need....a proven --or almost soon to be proven -- Pitcher... PBC got hosed... I just hope that Bowie Kuhn rises from the dead and tell PBC it is not allowed to trade anymore ("Pirates trade Doumit and Wilson for 4 Rookie Ball Catchers!!!!!! Per GM: "we had a lot of extra catching equipment in the minor leagues and wanted to get full use of it.....")...just pitiful

Truth

I played college ball and I represent players....that makes me a little bit more than a 'casual' ... PBC needs to spend some coin in free agency for front line pitching ..the locals are over the rebuilding thing.. do u think if Mark Cuban owned this club he would have the same mindset as current mgt... no.. he'd hit the FA market....

Doug Drabek. That was certainly a good trade with the Yankees. I don't remember the other players, but the PBC got a Cy Young winner.

sorry, ron d, you're just wrong. yes, the pirates need pitching in a bad way but what they need most is the best talent, no matter what position.

if the front office folks looked at all the deals on the table and determined tabata was the best talent and they liked the three other pitchers, then it's the right move. again, nady is a great guy and is having a great season but he is just not a superstar. this is not like giving away aramis ramirez, a bonafide young superstar at a premium position. this is trading away a 30yo corner OF having a career year.

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A better deal if they waited? As they had done in years past when they were down to the last ticking minutes of the deadline and paniced because things didn't go the way they had expected? Pretty much giving good players away for nothing or taking on bad players for what was truly trading for the sake of making one happen.

If you expected Nady to land us a huge prospect....I would love to hear who you think we could get for Bay. The entire Tampa Bay organization and the rights to talk to Brett Favre and his agent?

Amazing, some people just cannot be satisfied. Why in the world would you complain about this trade? Because we didnt get Joba Chamberlain? NH said he was going to get pitching depth, and he did. He said he would like to have competition for the rotation, and now he does (especially next year, imagine spring training starting with 10 possible rotation options: competition)

And please, quit referring to people who are 25 as "journeymen". First of all, you cant be a journeyman until you're 30, especially a pitcher. A 25 year-old still has 15 years left, if he pans out. A 19 year old prospect playing double-A ball? Derek Jeter was the last 19 year old playing double-A ball for the Yankees.

Cripes, you trade-bashers need to knock it off. Be satisfied that the new regime is trading for PROSPECTS unlike previous regimes...

Bring back Jimmy Anderson He's the answer to all their problems. After 16 years does it really matter anymore? If mangement whats to blow it up and bring in thier style of players, can it get worse? My nephew has never seen a winning team. That is what kills me. So why not see what kind of eye NH has. His signings and trades with the exception of Torres has been solid. The key is to see if this trade is setting up another.. .............

RonD...

Good FA's don't want to come here. And to land them one would have to highly over pay them. Is there a guarantee that the FA you are throwing the bank at is gonna turn things around? If they don't then you have a big financial problem on your hands. Richie Sexson, Adrian Beltre, Barry Zito  happen more often than a successful match.

How many World Championships has Mark Cuban brought to Dallas? All that money and he still can't buy solid defense or a ring for that matter.

Truth:

The Dodgers just traded a great pitching prospect and a catcher who is tearing it up in A-ball for Casey Blake.  Yes, that Casey Blake.  If Blake can bring that back than yes, the Pirates should have gotten more in return.  Us 'casual' fans, as you call everyone who doesn't agree with you, didn't expect Longoria or Bruce et al but we did expect more than a AAA ace, a headcase/ maybe prospect, an a couple pitchers who can just as likely be the next Morris/JVB/Hererra/Barthmeirer as anything that resembles acceptable starters.  And apparently, so did every other baseball professional.

guys--bash me if you want-- ur choice to do so....just think NH got raked a bit.....he's got to learn to hold his cards a bit longer...yea we got pitching depth.. bunch of mediocre guys....once agin...why get guys who really are just gorzo and snell with different heads......keep what you have that is good and spend the dough to get the arms-- money talks--the guys will come if u pay them

if the talent isnt there in return then dont make the trade--didnt we hear that from the pbc? so we go out and get a injury/low character guy as the main asset in the trade--look at it anyway you want but it doesnt make sense..

gotta go... the grass is calling me..enjoyed the dialogue boys.......... ron d

thata boy Timmmmmmmmmy

just saw x man in a yankee uni-- man is that sad

Wait....Carlos Santana who is tearing up A ball is a bonifide prospect, but Tabata is not because he tweaked a hammy and is battling back from the same injury the "savior" Pedro Alvarez battled back from this past season.

Check out this great pitching prospect....

www.thebaseballcube.com/.../John-Meloan.shtml

He isn't making that successful of a transition back into being a starter by the lock of things. 99 SO to 60 BB in AAA....OUCH !!!

As for the casual comment, don't take it personal. I don't throw it around because I think I am right and others are wrong. I throw it around because of all the people I come in contact with who constantly berate the Pirates no matter what they do, but you know once they start winning....everybody was diehard, lifelong, supported the team thru thick and thin.... You know the attitiude....you know what I mean.

yea truth -- i know what you mean...same folks who try to tell me i have a problem following the bucs...luckily i got my 9 yr old following them too--thru thick and thin-just like my old man did for me

ron d