If you don't live in the city, don't complain

This guy is funny, but he probably has no problem with the suburbanites who contribute to his cities tax coffers....I wonder how the writer would feel about the elected officials in Cranberry if he had to drive there everyday for work and they taxed him $52 a year for the "priviledge" of working there.  He may want to have a say in who is calling the shots.

For the record, I don't work in the city and I'm quite thankful for that as I am a firm believer in the "no taxation without representation" theory, which doesn't apply to the City of Pittsburgh, which I'm sure makes Greg ecstatic....after all, if everyone who was taxed by the city of Pittsburgh (as a result of their inept management) were to vote, they might actually turn over the political machine once in a while....what a novel concept.

Imagain what Pittsburgh would look like, smell like, be like "without" suburban dollars.  Now that's a novel concept.

I'm so sick of this "if you don't live inside the city borders, the city has no impact on you" garbage from the zombies who live there trying to justify why they always blindly pull the "D" lever without even thinking about it. What happens in the city does impact the suburbs. And many of us who live in the suburbs work in the city and pay all kinds of taxes via occupation tax, parking tax, etc. So don't sit there and tell me that I have no say.

Myreply, you are right, sub-urbanites definitely bring their entertainment dollars into the city when they want something beyond a visit to a chain restaurant and a trip to the multi-plex, and this makes the city a better place for all.

The sub-urbs wouldn't exist without the city. Look around the nation-there are no Monroevilles and Cranberries and Fox Chapels and Upper St. Clairs without an urban core.

I like how how city boundaries are defined in many western states-when the population density of an area around the city gets high enough it is absorbed into the city. It discourages the parasitic relationship we have, where folks live on the edge of town swooping in to get their livings, then swoop back out at night and complain about an employment tax that doesn't cover a tenth of the costs they incur for their host.

I hate sub-urbs. There formation has destroyed most of this country's cities.

Kevin:

Let me agree with one of your points.  Suburbs have hurt the cities.  Before malls, cities were thriving with shoppers galore.  I can remember our yearly trek into "town" to see the Christmas windows at Kaufmanns.  It is was an allday event - browsing, shopping and lunch with our parents.  Yes, malls, rather than suburbs changed our cities.  Some like NY still thrive though.

That being said, Pittsburgh does not make coming into town inviting.  It looks like a ghost town when there is not an event in town.

So I don't know if it was the chicken or the egg that changed the dynamics - I just know that they have changed.

My reply, you are absolutely right about malls and suburban shopping, restaurants, etc. hurting the city. It is just easier to go somewhere where you can park for free next to your destination. But "back in the day" before suburbs became so large the city didn't need outsiders to come into it to spend money; there were enough middle class folks still living in the city to support a robust retail environment. More importantly those middle class folks were paying taxes! That was when Pittsburgh had 640,000 folks, now it has around 300,000, and the migration has been led primarily by the better off. Add in half of the city being covered by 'non-profits' like Pitt /UPMC,  all the other hospitals and schools, those stadiums and art venues, a ton of public housing, and few of every type of social agency known, and the city tax options are pretty much a dry well.  

While I don't live in the city, the city has a great impact on my life and life style.  "Greater Pittsburgh Area".  Besides, I buy the P-G and they provide the opportunity to comment.

Kevin:

I think the dwindling of folks in Pittsburgh had more to do with the closing of the steel mills more than anthing else.

Many surrounding areas were affected by those closings.  They were changed dramatically.

The City of Pittsburgh is the economical bell cow for the region.  Rush hour traffic patterns verify this.

Suburbanites take home millions in wages from their city jobs while returning very little through a $1.00 a week tax or occasional discretionary spending.

The suburbs need the city for their very survival.   Many suburbs offer only low paying retail jobs and /or limited opportunities with small business along with medical offices.

In the future because of energy costs, the focus will once again be on urban centers for jobs and living.

Thank you, you have all proven my point.

Next Step....merge Alleghency county and the city together so that those who are taxed by the city can at least vote for the leadership whose policies create the need for taxes.....

This stuff is so easy....I will be moving on to quantum physics.

Not so fast, Niels Bohr.  As long as the city continues to be run by a hopelessly corrupt and inefficient Democratic machine, I don't think the surrounding communities are going to leap into this with any enthusiasm.

Our family was born and raised in what is now considered suburbs or ex-urbs but was then country.  My mom was a city girl and my dad came down to Penn Avenue to get supplies for his electrical business and we would all tag along usually having lunch at the Brass Rail and join the crowds on Fifth Avenue.  We did the usual shopping for school clothes and Easter outfits at Kaufmann's as well as enjoying the sights and sounds of Christmas in the city.  We did our day to day living and shopping in the small towns close to home.  Most of our neighbors did the same and many never went downtown.

As young adults for a while we worked in the city but lived in the suburbs close to family and friends but quickly got tired of the hassle and commute time and found good jobs closer to home.  We were Steeler fans or Pirate fans but if asked where we were from we would say West View or Bridgeville or Monroeville.

While Pittsburgh may have lost half of its residential population not all of the families living in what are now the suburbs are ex-Pittsburghers.  Many have lived and worked in the small towns and suburbs all their lives and feel closer ties to where they grew up than to the City of Pittsburgh.

As long as the residents of the suburbs pay earned income tax and vote for their leaders locally they will resist attempts by the city to tax them.  While the suburbs need the city I believe the city also needs the suburbs and the people who choose to live there--they are interdependent.  Many other areas have chosen to merge city and county for this reason and I believe we need to consider this option.

Peace, Bigmack, I would love to see the county and city merge, but I don't believe we'll ever get the more affluent suburbs to voluntarily do so.

Well said Greg Furhman! And what makes these suburban people think they are the only ones paying occupational tax? The people within Pittsburgh city limits pay 3.5% wage tax. As far as an "interdependent relationship"between city and suburbs-that's a crock. I'm sorry look each weekday morning at the traffic jams in 279 north, parkway east, parkway west and 65 south. Which direction is the traffic tie ups? We in the city or immediate suburbs are not traveling to the suburbs to work-the vast majority of people are traveling  in. These workers are not paying for the city infrastructure i.e. water, sewer lines, road maintenance,Pittsburgh Police to protect them while they are at work,because their property taxes are paid to Butler,Beaver and Westmoreland Counties, meanwhile we have 2,000 bridges here to maintain. God bless UPMC for being the among the regions top employers-but UPMC doesn't pay any property tax either, so the poor city residents get stuck picking up the tab for city maintenance.

I say we ,in addition to the occupational tax, have these pay a commuter tax as well.

rondee...."I say we ,in addition to the occupational tax, have these pay a commuter tax as well."....then you should have no problem with those paying that tax having a say in who runs your corrupt government.....or are you against that basic principal that founded this country?

peace

I live in the city and work in the suburbs, and I pay the $52 occupational tax too. My only question is, who in their right mind complains about a $52 a year tax?

Peace,

OK, you're aghast over the city charging a twenty cent per day commuter tax but you would be willing to fork over 3% of your income to vote against a democrat?

Good luck with the quantum physics

Peace- I like the idea of combined city/county but lets face it- those suburban communities would fight  tooth and nail, and fuss that your own communities would suffer financially,at the prospect of merging. It certainly wouln't be the residents of Pittsburgh who would fight a merge.And remember , if you could vote here, then I should be able to drive out and vote in suburbs as well, and you could look forward to the same Democratic leadership we have. Somehow I think suburbs want their cake and eat it ,too.

Really, I don't think corrupt is the correct word for describing city government.  When you lose half your population but still have to maintain the same roads, services, etc it has nothing to do with Republican or Democrat, but making necessary adjustments with what can be economically feasible to deliver.And this takes time.Pittsburgh and Allegheny County has worked hard at realigning those services. Dan Onorato has worked his butt off and done tremendous job- I don't care what anyone says. But we can't have people come here everyday to reap the reward of making a living and not helping to sustain whats needed here.

As far as the interdependent relationship between the city and the suburbs being a crock, here are some points to consider:

Regarding the $52 occupation tax:  Every employee pays this tax no matter if they work in the city or the suburbs so to complain about the city charging it is irrelevent.  The only people affected are part-time or low wage employees or those working for two or more employers who must pay the tax upfront and apply for a refund at the end of the year.

Regarding property tax:  Whether the commuters live in the city or not does not affect the property tax collected in the city.  The city now assesses this tax on all property in the city limits.  Unless the properties are upgraded with new construction the tax base is finite.  To increase the tax collected the tax rate must be increased or the exempt status of the schools, churches, non-profits, etc. must be eliminated.  The millage rate is not as high in the city as some of the suburbs because of the higher earned income tax rate paid by the residents.

Regarding the city and suburbs interdependence:  The companies in the city need employees nonwithstanding whether they live in the city or the suburbs.  Over time the residential housing stock in the city has been diminished to make way for stadiums, casinos and more office buildings.  Therefore the companies rely on the suburbs to house many of these employees.

As far as noting the rush hour traffic going into the city, yes the majority of the traffic is into the city.  But in regularly driving 79 and Parkway West rush hour traffic is almost as heavy going to Robinson Township, Southpoint, etc. as into the city.  

Also, didn't Westinghouse and several other companies move to Cranberry area recently?  While we have seen some new companies move in downtown there are a growing number locating in the suburbs also.

Regarding the earned income tax:  Anyone living outside the city is already paying this tax to their local municipalities.  While their rates are not as high as the city most are between 1% and 2%.  As I said, these people would strongly resist paying a tax to both the city and local municipality.  I have heard of some cities taxing the commuters on the difference between their local tax rate and the city tax rate, but there again since real estate taxes are lowered in the city to reflect the higher earned income tax rate, this would be a hard sell.

While I agree the city needs to cover its costs in providing services to the employeers and ultimately the employees in order to continue to grow, any proposal not offering the commuters something in return will doom it to failure.

This unsubstantiated view from suburbanites that the city is somehow corrupt seemingly stems from watching too many late night movies.

In theory corruption  stems from public officials who have held office for long periods of time building a machine style of government.

Mayor Luke Ravenstahl is only 29 yrs old and has just won his first full term.

The longest serving member on city council is 45 yr old Bill Peduto who just won a third term.

Machine politics this is not.

Occupation tax for working in Wilkinsburg or other declared "depressed" communities is more like $250 a year.

Some of the traffic is "pass through" going thru the city from one suburb to another.

I live in a suburb that has MILLIONS invested in Fire, Police and EMS equipment. I am certain we will NEVER agree to a Countywide system where someone comes in and decides to take one of our Engines, Truck, Ambulance or Police Cruisers to give to someone "less fortunate" ( due mostly in part to THEIR ineptitude or poor planning for the future...without financial compensation...which you likely can't afford or you wouldn't be begging in the first place.

MikeT / Kurt...you guys aren't really that stupid...I'm going to give you guys a pass on this....at what point did I say I was "complaining" about the $52 a year tax or that I would gladly pay 3% of my earned income for the right to vote against a dumbocrat?  What I have been saying is, and let me try to say this a little louder as you both apparently have a case of liberalitis (aka take what I say and spin it to make no sense)...."NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION".....

And Blazeboy....the corrupt machine is not in the individuals and their age, its in the political machine (the dumbocratic party) that props them along with massive spending and corruption....I don't expect you to understand.  After all, you are probably one of the ones who isn't educated enough to understand the political machine that Obama came out of in Chicago, cause all politicians are for the little person...you go boy!

allablaze the names are different, but the machine is the same. For you to say there is no DEM machine running Pittsburgh is too funny, no sad.

Those of you worried about the evil city Democratic machine dominating any county government-there are about 300,000 folks living in the city, 1,200,000 living in the county, so the city would constitute 1/4  of the population. I know us city dwellers are tougher and smarter, but you shouldn't be that intimidated.

Regarding another issue that touches on this-I think the city should start using the automated traffic light monitors, but only on the main commuting corridors. And you don't get to vote on that either, Peace!

peace

"No taxation without representation" is about the lamest response I could imagine. In fact, my response to you yesterday was aimed directly at your statement that if a city resident had to pay Cranberry $52 a year they might want a say in who runs things.

You're wrong. I'm in that exact situation and I don't think $52 should entitle me to a say in how they run things in the suburb where I work. $52 is a paltry sum of money to fork over for an entire year. It's literally nothing compared to the property, income and sales taxes residents pay.

$52 Occupation Tax was allowed by the State Legislature and is employed by at least 20 municipalities, of them being Pittsburgh, Erie, Harrisburg, Monroeville, South Park Township and Scranton.

Does your representation still hold office, or did you vote them out after learning that they passed House Bill 197 in 2004?

put up toll booths on every entrance ramp to both the Parkways, I-279, the HOV lane and the LIberty tunnels to catch the Route 51 commuters. Charge a quarter per vehicle...inbound only (like the Chesapeak Bay Bridge). Heck, the traffic doesn't move anyhow, so it will have little or no effect and will raise millions. No one exempt...buses, police cars, garbage truck, motorcycles, etc.

BUT, they must be automated, like on Toll Road 43, so that we don't have lazy, union toll takers making $60K a year to sit there and collect all the quarters.

There, i just solved the City's financial problem, so appoint me Mayor and I'll fix the rest of the dump up...I just refuse to become a city resident. Change the title to Manager, so the residency requirement can be waived.