Trades: For winning or money?

Letters: Open Pirates books

Bob Smizik's Blog — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:25:31 GMT

Saturday, 1 a.m. Q: The money vs. winning debate is not resolvable, but it can be put on a more informed

re: Trades: For winning or money?

WhatThePuck — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:20:16 GMT

pantherpride I would take a guy who is having trouble with his career and saying he needs time away to clear his thoughts than Manny Ramirez whom only thinks of himself and his bank account by taking steroids and letting his team down. Its the same thing but because Snell was struggling, its easy to cast him aside. What about his team letting him down when he was pitching good and yet he got no offensive support. I hope Snell does get traded and he becomes a dominant force while the Pirates get nothing in return

re: Trades: For winning or money?

JimmyC — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:18:43 GMT

Dab Gummit! The bottom line is the Pirates need to get back to the World Series and on national TV broadcasts once again.

Seventeen years. Seventeen years and not a hint of pennat fever!. I don't remember anyone asking for a cure.

Why it's been so long that the last time the Bucs contended "Blog" was not a word. We had to make long-distance phone calls to talk baseball with each other.

Let's see Democrats throw a Bush out of the White House, Pirates in last place. Democrats toss Bush's son out of the White House and the Pirates are still in last place.

People, we have a problem. Whether it's ownership or us is the question.

re: Trades: For winning or money?

mustang95 — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:00:52 GMT

even-handed analysis. people are rightly asking "are any of the guys we're getting any good?" wait and see.

re: Trades: For winning or money?

mercerboy — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:44:00 GMT

What I said is that the talent they have now is better than they had before. The top 10 players in the Pirates' minor league system before last year was pitiful. But now, at least a few guys could be major leaguers. Several of the players acquired were in the top 10 of their respective teams' prospect charts. They aren't getting a bunch of Bobby Hills and other useless pieces as they used to.

Look, I don't really trust the owner either. They should be spending more money on the team, but to be honest, they have no reason to. The team has been and still is awful at the major league level. Huntington/Coonelly are trying to stock the minor leagues with prospective talent like successful "small-market" teams such as Minnesota and Oakland have done in the past. Surely they are being budgetized by the owner, but at least these guys look like they know what to do to use the resources they're given to do that (as opposed to Dave Littlefield).

Good luck trying to get Nutting out. The only ways he may leave is if they pay down the debt on the team and sell to the high bidder or if MLB gets rid of revenue sharing so that he can't make money by losing. Until then, he's not going anywhere. I wouldn't waste your time trying to drive them out. Don't go to the games and tell your friends not to go either (as I'm sure you aren't already). That's all you can do.

re: Trades: For winning or money?

daquido_bazzini — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:25:27 GMT

Mercerboy....A TON of talent???

The Pirates don't even know the term talent.

All there is now is more garbage on garbage to choose from.

As I mentioned above....These are all 2nd rate prospects at best.

I'll tell you what....While you and a few others give this regime several more years....Myself and many more will continue to put pressure on Bob Nutting to clear out.

There has to be a way to get him OUT of those offices at PNC Park.

He doesn't deserve to be there.

I'm interested in hearing any legal ideas to get him OUT.

re: Trades: For winning or money?

mercerboy — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:53:24 GMT

Anyone who is talking about the Pirates needing to lower ticket prices is insane. The Pirates have THE lowest ticket prices in the major leagues in terms of "bang for your buck." The $27 infield box seats at PNC are about $50 at any other stadium. I'm honestly surprised they haven't raised prices to stay competitive, but then again...the team isn't competitive anyway.

Secondly, anyone who thought that Bay/Nady/Ramirez/anyone else good enough to start on a good team would stick with the Pirates once they reached free agency is equally insane. The team was losing 95+ games with these players! How can you expect them to win as they get older and still have little/no talent outside of a couple of guys?

Onto these trades...this team was completely barren of talent a year ago. There is a TON more potential talent in this system after the trades and the draft. The Pirates had no choice; to build a consistent winner, they had to completely change their philosophy of using retreads as starters, draft good talent and sign them, develop said talent, and trade for talented younger players that can help sustain a winning team.

I understand that everyone wants to bag the owner/management for not spending money. It certainly looks like they don't care, but I am willing to give the new management team a chance to show that they can turn the entire organization into a competent small-market franchise. They are starting to do the right things right now. Let's see where it gets them in a few years. If after that time they continue to lose and continue to sell players off to reduce their payroll, then I'll probably be done with this team too. The real question will be that if these younger players do show REAL improvement and the team becomes a franchise that can sustain an 85-90 win season, will the ownership spend the money necessary to keep said players and bring in good FA's that will put the team over the top? That is when we'll know the true intentions of the owners.

re: Trades: For winning or money?

Californication — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:06:27 GMT

I am the radical fringe element who sees the latest Pirate ineptitude as starting with a financially handicapped owner, one Robert Nutting, principal owner of the Pirates and other ventures…..Ogden Newspapers and Seven Springs Ski Resort which, in my radical fringe element opinion, are bleeding cash. With that said, let's look at this from the TOP down...

1) 2010 Pirate Operating Budget...Businessmen are very budget-centric in their planning and Ops budgets are put together multiple years in advance and revisited/revised cyclically. Then their minions are evaluated on how well they execute to the plan. I believe Nutting has a plan that requires the Pirates opening day roster salary to be <$20M. I believe that trading Nate early and first was meant to be viewed as a “bold move” by the minions who must execute to the plan. In actuality the McClouth trade was meant to accomplish two items, one clandestine, the other public:

A) The Pirates come nowhere near a winning record in 2009;

B) Future 2009 trades are framed as part of a “rebuilding” plan.

2) FO..THE Front Office....Not their fault. They current group is playing the hand they have been dealt. I’m not thrilled with the value the Bucs got in the Nate trade with Atlanta but it is less about the value and more about the drivers that led the trade. When you're hand is forced you do your best. Also, while much fun is made by me and others about “bobbleheads and fireworks”....just imagine what is must be like working in marketing for the Pirates….not exactly a job I’d like to have in Pgh, PA.

3) Reporting...It was mentioned in the above comment that some “investigative reporting” may be in order wrt Nutting’s plan…I agree wholeheartedly. Dejan needs a Pirates FO Deep Throat to either confirm or deny the fringe element’s salary dump conspiracy theory and any other accounting tricks that are going on….THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE. There usually is collateral damage when cutting operating expenses and this collateral damage causes people to lose their jobs and that (and some Scotch) loosens lips.

4) Ownership Change…. It’s my fringe element belief that the financially handicapped Nutting is not ever going to spend money on players salaries even to the average MLB salary level. He needs to come to his senses and sell the team to someone who is willing and able to INVEST some money in order to chase titles. It took the Chicago Tribune almost two years to unwind their Cubs investment, selling the team for $900M. Sell the boat Mr. Nutting! There is no need to either conceal or hide the fact the team is on the block…..the value is the value. The Pirates are estimated by Forbes to be worth about $288M….that’s quite a discount to get into the league, invest in the team, build it up and sell it in 5 to 10 years at a tidy profit. Sure, we’d rather see a new owner have the last name of Rooney and stay forever and maybe he/she does after they make the return on their investment but at this point, even at the risk of losing the team, a change in ownership needs to occur.

More Mencken for you Bob S….Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

re: Trades: For winning or money?

kevin morris — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:58:41 GMT

JuniataKid, I can't believe you expressed a bit if distrust related to Mr. Nuttings long-term intentions to provide us with the championship level team we deserve, if only we continue to support the franchise for another six years (you do reference 2015). And here I thought you were a "real fan!"

re: Trades: For winning or money?

jwilli6230 — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:36:50 GMT

The dearth of talent we have in our minor league system is the result of repeatedly bad decisions on draft day. Passing up impact players because they are to expensive to sign or reaching on players when we have top 10 or better picks every year. Our team is not that far away from winning. Look at this lineup of players we have had and tell me that its not capable of competing for a championship.

1. McCutchen CF

2. Sanchez 2B

3. McClouth LF

4. Aramis Ramirez 3B

5. Jason Bay RF

6. Ryan Doumit C

7. Adam LaRoche 1B

8. Jack Wilson

9. Pitcher

We had all these guys under contract this time last year with the exception of Ramirez. By simply putting out a little more $ we could have the team mentioned above plus a 3rd basemen. Now could we keep it year in and year out? I would venture to say for the next couple years we could keep the core and lose a Ramirez. At which time Alvarez would be ready. Its not a stretch its doable. And we still are able to trade players like Nady, Morgan etc and replenish the farm system. Jack Wilson and Sanchez are not average middle infielders they are excellent all round players that you can build a team around.