Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

re: Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

Retire#21 — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:51:47 GMT

Impliedi, I hear you and I see what you are getting at. I question your comment that attendance has little to do with profitability. Maybe you misstated that. Can you further explain? Would seem to me that attendance and profitability go hand in hand.

In regards to the Penguins comparisons. I'll put it this way: The Penguins had the top pick in the draft and selected Crosby, knowing that his second contract was going to cost them huge money. They had the second overall pick and chose Malkin, knowing that his second contract was also going to cost them huge money. Fleury was a # 1 overall pick and Staal was a # 4 I think. Pens knew that drafting those types of players was going to cost them huge $$$ when it came time for the second contract, yet they drafted all of them and paid the $$$ to keep them.

Pirates had the top pick and took Brian Bullington, immediately projecting him as a # 4 starter. Those do not cost you much money. Two years ago they passed on Wieters and took Moskos because they did not want to buck up to pay Wieters. This year, same with Sanchez in the draft, they knew he wasn't going to cost them much $$$. Give them credti for Alvarez, granted, and they paid up for him. Will they pay up for Sano? Remains to be seen, but I doubt it. So if you compare the two, if the Penguins were like the Pirates they'd have skipped Crosby and taken a 4th line center with the # 1 overall pick or a defenseman they projected as a 5th or 6th defender. But they didn't, they chose the best talent knowing it would cost them $$$, and then spent it to keep it.

re: Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

Marnie — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:00:39 GMT

Hi bob: Really great analysis. i can't read 113 comments so not sure if someone else brought up this related point - it would be interesting to learn how much Pirate revenue supports Nutting's newspaper franchises. I'm convinced more and more each day that the only way to turn the franchise around is to have an owner willing to spend the money on players - salary cap or not. It would be nice if sports reporter did some investigating to find out. It would illuminate how much commitment Nutting really has in building a winning and therefore more expensive franchise.

At some point very soon the Pirates will only be able to garner major league prospects by trading their current major league prospects (Tabata, Alverez and McCutchen.) Wilson and Sanchez and LaRouche etc... will get you prospects but given their current production/value, I expect not much more "upside" than what is currently in the farm system.

Marnie in NYC.

re: Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

impliedi — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:31:58 GMT

@retired I understand and appreciate your viewpoint, as well. I guess my points are: attendance has very little to do with the team profitability. Many people throughout this and the PBC blog (not you specifically) think that staying away from the games is going to send a strong message to ownership and they'll suddenly drastically increase payroll. For those that believe ownership is only out to make money, why would they?? If attendance drops, then payroll would just drop, too not go up. So by virtue of that, people are implying I'm just feeding the Nutting greed by attending games. I attend games because I enjoy them. I do believe that most owners want to win, but are also good businessmen(women). Throwing lots of money at a bad situation won't solve the problems. I do believe that when the young hitters (Tabata, Alvarez, Hernandez, etc.) mature, the management will go out and spend the money to get some pitching and a bench. I hate to crucify the management by assuming they're NOT going to do something that they haven't had a chance to prove yet . I'm assuming people who feel that way, are also not going to give Milledge the benefit of the doubt before he even appears in one game. I'm of the belief that New York was too high profile for him too soon and the Nationals (being in even worse shape than the Pirates) tried to force him to do things that he may not be suited for (CF, leadoff, etc.)...sounds a lot like the Pirates with Chris Duffy...hmmmm, alter his swing, mess with his mind and he loses it....

Oh well, I'm sorry I keep bringing up the Penguins (I realize the 2 situations are completely dissimilar), but the main point I was trying to make (although not as well as I'd like) is that the Penguins were a complete mess just a few years ago. Issues with payroll, threats to move the team and all of that, but they make 2 runs at the Cup and all of those things are forgotten. I think the same is true for the Pirates. The winning in the early 90's pushed aside the mess of the 80's (namely the drug trails and the near moving of the team). If they start winning big in 2012 (or whenever) people will forget the nearly 2 decades of losing. Pittsburgh fans (like in other cities) love their winners.

re: Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

Retire#21 — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:10:04 GMT

...and please note that the Penguins raised ticket prices AFTER they began winning, not after a 100 loss season. Remember that? Boy, the Pirates management really knows how to reward THEIR fans.

re: Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

Retire#21 — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:40:13 GMT

Implied, you are taking this personally and it is not meant to be personal. I don't think that you are a fool for going to Pirate games. I get the "bad baseball is better than no baseball" feelings. My point is that I don't think that you are a fairweather fan just because you choose to not give your money to an owner who can't be trusted with it. If the Pirates draw close to 3 million fans next year, do you think the owner will actually pursue talented players? Or sign the talented ones he has? If you say yes to that, then that is your belief and that is cool. Me, I don't go on belief, I go on tract records. I see nothing in the Nutting family track record that leads me to believe that they will spend the money to field a major league product. Again, record attendance in the first year at PNC Park. And that attendance translated into what? Excellent attendance the year of the All Star Game. What happened to the product on the field the following season?

I don't believe that the Pirates should spend $70 million on bad players. But I do believe that if they spend $25 million on a 100 loss team next year, that it stands to reason that they should then have around $50 million laying around in the bank the next year to keep the talent that they do have, and add to it with at least one additional player per year who can pitch, catch, throw and or hit a baseball. If that makes me arrogant, then I'm cool with that.

re: Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

Saylor — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 18:00:37 GMT

I fully support these moves.

But I also realize their not likely to happen.

I'm betting Wilson will play out this year and resign. His hitting and defensive skills are just flat out not good enough for any team to give up much for him.

Sanchez could leave via free agency, but considering the current payroll being rather low even for the Pirates I wouldn't be surprised if he returns as well. Sanchez could fetch some low-mid level prospects but your not gonna get much for a high average low power second baseman that does not steal bases.

Defense is the rule for middle infielders. Your only going to see major trades for middle infielders that bring some kind of offensive talent to the table that elevates them over what any team has now or can grab elsewhere. The team with the most value for Sanchez or Wilson is, believe it or not, the Pirates. Our severe lack of middle infielders throughout the system, and that both are a veteren presence on a young team make them probable signings. They'll be shopped, but I really doubt they'll find much for them.

Laroche may be gone, but we'll have to wait and see.

re: Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

Woomer — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 03:36:52 GMT

It's amazing that Neal Huntington and Frank Coonelly are actually being paid (and paid well) to dismantle this team;

while the fans who are actually PAYING to see the Pirates not only have NO INPUT AT ALL, but are also being verbally deceived by those who ostensibly are looking out for their best interest.

Frankly (no pun intended), it makes me angry!

re: Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

impliedi — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:49:50 GMT

@Retire Um, so YOU and others are savvy consumers because you don't want to spend money on the Pirates when they are doing poorly, but Bob Nutting is no good because he doesn't want to spend HIS money on a team right now that has no chance of winning in a league that has no salary cap....I get it.....

I apologize for supporting the Pirates through both good and bad, I thought I did it because I love baseball and I love the Pirates. Seems I'm being a total fool. Maybe I should go away until then win a pennant so I can feel I'm getting my money's worth....Actually I'm still going to go. But when you and all of the other real fans come to PNC Park when they start winning again, please just don't get up every 5 minutes to get nachos and stuff (at least have the courtesy to do it BETWEEN innings) because US gullible people will be trying to watch the game.

As for the Penguins, when they dismantled the team a few years back, I seem to recall quite a few people saying Mario should sell the team if he isn't going to be able to put a quality team on the ice. Have you looked at the price of Penguin tickets lately. Boy they definitely reward their fans.

re: Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

pittfaninlioncountry — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:33:52 GMT

No disrespect PitBullz, put down the hippie lettuce and join us on planet Earth.

Alvarez and Tabata are FIVE years away from seeing the big leagues. Remember we don't promote on performance, we promote on not starting that years of sevice clock , that is the Pirate mission statement. Because we need to know we control their rights until 2016. Turn to page one of your program to see the control costs and profits section.

Nutting should be forced to rebate to the taxpayers the difference of what the real value of this pathetic club is without PNC Park. He should not get the inflated price in a sale that was created on the backs of the tax paying public.

re: Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

Taiwan — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:00:02 GMT

I think you are wrong. Sanchez is statistically speaking the second best hitting second baseman in the NL. He could be the starter anywhere besides Philly(Utley).