Open your books, Mr. Nutting!

"Open the books" is hopelessly naive. Any good corporate accounting can fine tune the numbers in a way to convince you the Nuttings should be out of Federal Street with tin cups. I remember one year when the Pirates were set to show an operating profit and turned it into a big loss because they chose to put their entire collusion payment on that year's ledger. Some of the people who want to see the books are the same ones who take their 1040EZ to H & R Block. If they do open the books, they'll arrange the numbers to show a modest profit at best.

Forget payroll. What I demand is for the Pirates to show where they have increased spending on scouting and development. Which superstar scout have they stole from other teams  by giving them money they have from their payroll savings?  NAME ONE HIGHLY REGARDED SCOUT THEY HAVE LURED FROM OTHER TEAMS.

Unless they have put in an extra  20-30M in the last two years for INCREASED level of scouting and development, Pirates are STEALING fans money.

I have not spent a dollar on Pirates merchandise or tickets for the last few years. I refuse to until they show me what they have done with the player salary savings to improve the club long term. Saying they improved Latin American operations is too vague. At this point, where do we compare to other clubs with the so called improvements? How are these new personnel in scouting regarded by the baseball community? It is a waste of time to debate player transactions at this point until we can assess the scouting expertise which can give us confidence as to the long term outcomes of these hard to predict trades.

Bob,

Have you read this article from the NY Daily News?

www.nydailynews.com/.../2009-11-21_new_york_mets_offseason_focus.html

"What we do know is Pirates chairman Bob Nutting is not re-investing his revenue sharing in payroll, although there are disturbing rumors in Pittsburgh that he's using the Pirates' money to subsidize the hemorrhaging at his Seven Springs Ski Resort in Champion, Pa."

Truly disgusting if true.

Bob - Speak it, brother. Sing it from the rooftops!

But, one thing we have learned about Mr Nutting - he has thick skin. He doesn't care what you, or I, or anyone else thinks. He's going to continue to do what he wants.

And why not? He has the personal backing of Bud, he's not breaking any laws, he's guaranteed 1.5 million fans per year, and there's nothing anyone can do about the whole sad affair.

It's a license to print money - why should he change?

And when he pops his clogs, his daughter is taking over - verbatim from Bob himself.

Ever hear of the L.A. Clippers? They're right here in Pittsburgh.

Well done, Bob.  Would love to see the media, joined by government officials and local business leaders, put some pressure on the Nuttings to explain their performance with this team.  They are ambassadors for the city of Pittsburgh -- and they stink and are getting stinkier by the minute.  

If the Pirates had any demonstrable successes from their efforts -- that would be one thing.  But outside of dumping salary -- everything the organization has done seems to be nothing but talk.

BTW, if Ogden Enterprises has any publicly traded debt -- there may be financial information in there about the performance, or lack thereof, of the company.  Levi Strauss is privately held, but they have public debt -- so you can tell if the company's sales are up, down or whatever.

About time the heat gets turned up on the Pirates and their ownership.

Pghboyinca had an interesting theory a while back. He posited the idea that Bob Nutting is using team revenues to aggressively pay down debt, but not for the normal sound business reasons one might expect. Pghboy thinks maybe Nutting is setting up the both the Pirates and Seven Springs to be cash cows he can bequeath to his daughters. Now right about here, I expect Bob Smizik to insert comments to the effect: THAT"S PURELY SPECULATION ON YOUR PART AND NOT GROUNDED IN ANYTHING EVIDENTUAL.

Well, that would be true. Not only do I have zero evidence of such a plan, I only afford it lukewarm credence, myself. But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask such a question. Nutting has declared that he has no intention of selling the Pirates, and that he plans to deed the team and the ski resort to his daughters. So then, is it so unreasonable to wonder out loud about this as Pghboy and I (lukewarmly) do? All these unaccounted monies NOT going into the major league product, combined with the revelation that Nutting wants to give the team to his daughters, make for a lot of unanswered questions, indeed.

OPEN THE BOOKS! Let in the antiseptic of glorious sunshine! The best thing that could happen is that the Nutting Way gets surprisingly vindicated...(HAH!). At worst, same ol' Pirates, as we suspected.

Well done Bob!   Top flight reporting!

Here's some options for we long suffering and now highly suspicious Pirates fans...........

1. Bob Nutting opens his books in some fashion to assure us he is not stealing Pirates money for his other losing ventures.  I say he is stealing the money!

2. Whomever speaks for the city of Pittsburgh these days (the Mayor ?) needs to speak up now until we get some answers. That's what these people are elected for.

3. Governor Ed Rendell was involved in pushing for public financing of PNC Park.  Now it's time for the Governor to revisit his project and ask Bob Nutting to "show me the money"!  

4. Bud Selig needs to assure the fans in Pittsburgh that the Pirates and any other team in a similar situation ARE spending every penny they can on development and NOT on Seven Springs and losing newspaper ventures owned by Bob Nutting.  No cooking the books or playing games with the numbers.

Some baseball fans in Pittsburgh are sick and tired of being taken to the cleaners.   And yet others seem not to care and are perfectly willing to pay high prices to watch a game, see the Pirates put an amateur team on the field, laugh at the hot dog and mustard bottle races between innings and in the process, help Bob Nutting keep his other interests afloat with their money?

Why?  

So what if the Pirates do get $80M before selling a ticket? Guess how much they get from selling tickets? $26M! Doesn't that put things into perspective?

Guess how how much EXTRA money the Yankees are getting from their stadium this year? $100M! That's extra - as in $100M MORE than they made last year.

That sort of puts things into perspective, yes?

Seriously, Bob, what is the point of this witch hunt? No MLB team opens their books. It's against MLB policy. They are not allowed to talk specific numbers.

Apart from that, it is not necessary!

Anyone with a brain in their head can look at the numbers you do know and see if Nutting is spending proportionally what the other similar teams spend.

The Brewers take in $50M more in revenue than the Pirates - this comes from Coonelly and if it weren't true Selig would not have authorized him to divulge it - yet you can plainly see that their payroll in 2009 was only about $30M more than the Pirates'.

The Marlins had the same attendance and therefore very similar revenue to the Pirates, and yet spent only $36.8M on payroll this year.

The Twins are estimated to have made $11M more in profit than the Pirates this year.

The owners of all of these teams are apparently profiting more than Bob Nutting, and yet they have all been more successful at winning games.

And guess what? If the Pirates had drafted well like all of those teams did instead of squandering years of high draft picks, the Pirates would be winning, too, and would not have had to trade away the middling MLB talent they did have for talent that could fight another day.

What is not understandable about that? The Pirates had no choice. They had no way to get the valuable starting pitching that they needed, and the whole friggin' team was going to be free agents after 2009.

Seriously, what is so hard to understand?

What is this incredible obsession that you have with raising payroll when the Pirates don't have valuable players to give that money to?

Are you wanting them to go out and spend money on valuable free agents like all the other delusional people in this town? Don't you realize that no other team in their market position does that?

In 2009, there was not one team in any market under 4M people that paid a free agent position player market wages to perform at a 3+ WAR level and had that player perform at that level.

NOT ONE PLAYER!!!

With that knowledge, how delusional do you have to be, Bob, to think that spending money at this stage is the answer?

Money will only be important when the Pirates want to keep McCutchen, Alvarez and Lincoln for 8-10 years instead of 5-6. If the Pirates are winning and the people are packing PNC in 5 years, and the Pirates have not locked up their 4+ WAR players, then you have a beef.

Until then, please talk about baseball, or find a subject you know something about.

(Tale a second from brewing up another batch of Kool-Aid, Mark, and tell me where I asked Nutting to spend a penny. I didn't. I asked for some sort of public accounting of what he is doing with his profits. -- Bob Smizik)

Even if Nutting did open his books, as ForbesFielder already noted, the books could be fudged to show small profits as Nutting maintains.

I have seen and heard numerous times in the past that a team can get a hefty fine of $1-2 million dollars for opening their financial records. Can someone confirm this?

emoney - yes. it's against the rules. No team does it.

Why do people in Pittsburgh think that Nutting should for some reason be a benevolent Santa Claus handing out World Series trophies like candy canes and sinking every possible dime he has into that goal?

Why is it reasonable to think that Nutting should spend FAR MORE money on payroll than the other owners in MLB do on their teams?

If there were actual EVIDENCE that Nutting were spending far less than other owners, that would be one thing, but there's absolutely NO EVIDENCE!

In fact, there is ample evidence to show that Nutting spends at least a much a percentage on payroll than most other owners do.

Those examples that I mentioned above are real life examples of successful teams that spend proportionally less on payroll than the Pirates do.

What about Tampa Bay? They only raised payroll when they had good players to pay and their attendance rose to support it. Attendance there has risen now to 23K/game from 16K, but ownership is saying that is not enough to sustain the payroll very long - they are looking for 30K/game.

That's right - this is to support their payroll of $63M.

When they had 16K/game, the Rays' payroll was $24M - HALF of what the Pirates was in 2009.

Yet the Pirates attendance has been only 18K/game and the yinzers thing Nutting is fleecing them!

In 2008, the Rays sensed a breakout year for talent and their payroll increased to $44M - still LOWER than the Pirates, yet their attendance was 22K/game - 4K higher than the Pirates'.

Anyone who objectively looks at these numbers can see that here are four teams that are more successful with a lower proportion of their revenue going to payroll than the Pirates.

The Pirates spend MORE money proportionally than the Rays, the Marlins, the Brewers and the Twins!

Not MORE profit for Nutting - LESS profit than these other franchise owners.

Where is the evidence that Nutting is profiting MORE than other owners? Isn't that the standard that he should be held against?

(Mark:  You're good a dodging issues.  I said nothing about how much profit he's making or how it compares to other teams. I said as I sign of goodwill for a franchise in desperate need of it he should open his books.  It's that simple. ---  Bob Smizik)

Superb work, Bob!!    Since Nutting probably doesn't have an internet connection (too expensive), perhaps you can print out this brilliant article and mail it to him via the US Postal Service.   Better yet, send it "certified - return receipt" and have 'im sign for it.  

Continue to press, Bob.   If enough heat is generated, Nutting will eventually have to bend from the pressure.    

@Paul H:

>>>3. Governor Ed Rendell was involved in pushing for public financing of PNC Park.  Now it's time for the Governor to revisit his project and ask Bob Nutting to "show me the money"! <<<

Rendell was elected to his first term in 2002, one year after PNC Park opened, and many years after the financing was secured.

emoneypitt and MarkInDallas are 2 stooges for the Nuttings and Pirates.

The other teams haven't lost for 17 straight years and don't make the stupid blunders and cheap moves the Nuttings and Pirates make year after year.  The marlins won a recent championship so please don't compare the Pirates with them.  The Pirates are in a class of ineptitude all to themselves.  A once proud franchise is decimated by carpetbagging idiots.

"Where is the evidence that Nutting is profiting MORE than other owners? Isn't that the standard that he should be held against?"  NO, absolutely not.  Who cares what the other teams do?  If the Pirates were winning and Nutting was making more profits than others, the money would NOT be an issue.  I have long suspected he was taking his profits and paying down the debt, thereby not directly "pocketing" the money.  I never imagined the amount could be $75M before a ticket was sold.  That absolutely sickens me when I think how cheap this ownership is.  

We seem to be in a game of semantics as Nutting, the Pirates management and the 2 stooges scramble to diffuse the issue through misdirection.

Bob, please keep the heat on.  The Nuttings stink.

IIRC, DK reported very similar figures, which would be higher now after adjusting for inflation or higher yearly payments from revenue sharing and other sources, about 4 years ago.

Congress also forced all of MLB to open their books and could do so again.

The Nuttings own a regional bank with branches in WVA, Ohio and northern VA. There would be SEC and other public filing associated with that. The Nuttings do have a website: oni.com.

I've been mostly supportive of Nutting and the current FO so far.

I don't necessarily believe that Nutting is hoarding tens of millions of dollars on an annual basis. I also wouldn't be shocked if that was happening. We simply don't have enough hard evidence to prove either case. Only Mr Nutting and his investors in the team know the real number.

I also don't believe that money should be spent on a team just for the sake of spending it or improving an awful team into a mediocre one. I was highly critical of the Pirates FO when the Jack WIlson/Freddy Sanchez drama unfolded. It looks like the market value for those two turned out to be not much higher than the original offers made by Neal Huntington. Can a team like the Pirates really afford $17 million a season or whatever Jason Bay wants these days just to turn a 65 win team into a 70 win team?

I'm not necessarily defending Nutting as it is ultimately his responsibility to field a winning, contending team. So far he has not delivered but it takes time to turn around the absolute mess that McClatchy and Littlefield left the franchise in. Sure, money has some to do with the Pirates' ills of the last 17 years but poor drafting and development and poor management on almost all levels of the organization have been the main culprits.

The real test for Nutting will come when the team is winning with their young, drafted and traded for talent and the time comes to maintain and upgrade an above average or good team into a contender. Hopefully that time will come within the next 2-3 years.

If star players from a winning team in contention for the postseason are still being dealt at the deadline to avoid big paydays, then the beef is legitimate.

Bertthescott,

Would you rather the Pirates spend 10 mil per year for players like Jason Kendall or Matt Morris and buy a bunch of over the hill veterans like Littlefield did? Maybe we can get Derek Bell to put down his crack pipe, come off his boat and quit the team again if he isn't busy in jail somehow.

The Marlins, Twins and others who have had success with lower payrolls have done so because of good drafting and talent evaluation, something the Pirates have not done for most of the losing years.

Thanks Bob - keep on these guys.  

This ownership group does not understand the basic premise that they are the "caretakers" of this franchise.  The fans own this team.  

The PR speak that comes out PNC Park makes me sick to my stomach.  

This is one of the great sports town in the country, and I believe the fans understand how the current CBA puts small market teams at a disadvantage.  No one is demanding championships, but at least be competitive and not an embarassement.  

As fans, we cannot get rid of the ownership group fast enough.  As impossible as it seems, Nutting is actually making me miss McClatchey.  At least he was passionate and cared about the product on the field.  

By the way,

Calling someone a name because their viewpoint doesn't agree with yours is not something that an intelligent blogger or debater does.

But you can call me Curly if it makes ya feel better sweetheart.

I'll take the stand with emoney and markindallas.

Would I like to see the books? Sure. Will I ever get the opportunity? Nope. Do I care? Not so much. It's a private business, as pointed out many times, and come to think of it, so is Seven Springs. If he wants to take from one private business and give to the other, is that dirty? I can remember a time when US Steel was combined with Marathon Oil to form USX Corporation. Was it wrong that, for a few years, Marathon basically kept US Steel in business? Or take the vice versa approach when US Steel bought the ailing oil company and kept them afloat. Why would I care how these businesses are run? I don't have to buy their products.

As far as the Pirates themselves go, I haven't been to a game in a few years. I watch them on TV a few times per week, so I suppose I'm contributing indirectly to them that way by supporting FSN Pittsburgh and watching commercials. I think Nutting is a cheap owner, and that's being kind. But he doesn't have to show me any paperwork. All I want to see is winning baseball. I like the rebuilding effort because it's apparent now that Bay would probably have tested the market anyway, and it's likely he'll end up with one of the usual suspects (Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, ho-hum). I also know that, either due to the "small market" or the cheap owner, the Pirates wouldn't be players for any big $$ free agents. I'm glad they hired a GM willing to realize this paradigm and take the high risk (for him anyway), high reward route of blowing up the team. Whether he got the right talent back remains to be seen, though early returns are mixed. In general, I think the talent in farm system is better than on Opening Day, 2008. So, I'll continue to follow the club and probably go to a game or two next year. I still like watching baseball, and I think it's better live.

Anyway, the point in all of this. We can't force him to open his books. If you don't like the product, the best way to display that is to not go to the games. If you don't mind watching and playing the "maybe in 2012" game, then go. If you like baseball, live in the city and don't want to travel to Altoona or Washington, then go. Albert Pujols is an amazing player, and he comes to town about 9 games per year. If you feel you're being cheated by buying a ticket and believing half of that money is headed to make snow on a ski slope, then don't buy the ticket. If this thought doesn't cross your mind, and you just to enjoy a great ballpark and watch the closest thing to professional baseball (at least the other team likely has some good players) in Pittsburgh, then go and have fun. This is not a crime either.

Bob,

I have really enjoyed watching your transformation over the past year or so, and how you have come around to see reality. Well done. It is not easy for the human mind to adjust to information that contradicts a previously formed opinion. We will need you, and every member of the media, to influence public opinion in order to put sufficient pressure on Nutting in order to materially affect his profit and get him to sell.

(I am unaware of any change on my stance concerning Nutting, other than I've never asked him to open his books before. ---  Bob Smizik)

@markindallas - are you related to the Nuttings or anyone in the FO? There are so many counters to your nonsense that I don't have time to go through all of them. However, to summarize, go back and listen to Herm Edwards' famous post-game rant from a few years ago. He said "The objective is to win the game!" Nutting's current level of commitment in terms of funding or otherwise, has been much, much, much less than sufficient to win baseball games. The fact that he has hired people willing to defend the status quo, and spout nonsense (the subject of another excellent blog post by Bob), does not change the fact that they collectively are not taking the necessary drastic steps needed to win baseball games. I've heard the "when they have players, they'll spend money argument," but as we have seen over the last 17 years, they magically, mysteriously, always find "great baseball trades" that just so happen to get rid of players who's rights they don't control for many more years and would have to raise payroll to keep. If you think that we'll keep Alvarez, Cutch, etc. when/if they become stars, it would be hard to overstate your stupidity. It is looking more and more likely that Nutting has the money, he definitely has benefitted from the public's money, and I do believe it is time for the government to get involved (and this is from someone who normally leans away from government involvement in the economy). At the very least, they could make Nutting's life difficult enough that it changes his personal cost/benefit analysis. Imagine this turning into a multi-generational Nutting-led team...17 years may seem like nothing in another 30...Folks, even the Clippers have had a winning season more recently than the Bucs. They are a disgrace, and will continue to be, given a man at the helm with the extraordinary vision to remain invested in the print media business (this internet thing, and the move toward free, on-demand, user-generated content thing is just a fad).

When the Nuttings either buy PNC Park from the city or start paying rent to the city, I will care less about how they handle their businesses. Until then, we all have skin in this game.

Bob,

"there is reason to be at least suspicious"???  Really??  Seriously???  This is well beyond suspicion and there's no need for Nutting to open his books. What he's doing is a clear as the nose on his face.  Approximately $80 million before one ticket is sold?  Amazing.  And what's their player payroll now?  25 or 30 million?  It's a farce and it's not like this is breaking news. They aren't pursuing one Type A free agent.  Then again, what talented free agent veteran would want to come here?  To the Siberia of baseball?  The answer is “none”.  Why people go to Pirate games is beyond me.  I love baseball, but I’m not going to give that man another cent until this organization can prove that they know what they’re doing and that they're doing everything they can to field a winning baseball team.  Obviously, they don't need fans in the stands to have money to pay for talent anyhow.  Every dollar spent on a ticket is going into Nutting’s bank account.

MLB should be ashamed to have let this travesty go on. Can you blame the bigger money teams for their criticisms of this behavior? No way.  I remember when I became disgusted with baseball back in the early 90’s when the Pirates couldn’t afford to pay the talented players any longer and I blamed it on the MLB for allowing it to happen.  However, now there is no excuse for the Pirates except for them creating a team that no reasonable FA would want to come to.  What a mess the Pirates ownership and management have created.  And now Nutting is making money off of it.  Amazing and disgusting.  

I just hope that the influx of all these prospects will allow them to somehow rise from the ashes and create an atmosphere of winning.  Hopefully then, the will also be able to lure some FA’s here and also pay to keep some of the young talent they’ve obtained long term.  Right now, that’s only wishful thinking.  Show me.

BOB,

What is truly stunning is that the entire Pittsburgh media has ignored these facts. Not one of the local major media figures gone after the Pirates and Mr. Nutting with aggressive investigation and reporting.

Simply asking a carpet bagger to open his books won't yield results. It calls for aggressive maneuvering and professional reporting. (Tailored after something like Watergate reporting. Let's call it Pirate-Gate.)

(Dejan Kovacevic's coverage of Pirates finances has been excellent. -- Bob Smizik)

MarkinDallas makes some good points, albeit ones that most everyone may not want to hear.

I won't go too far out on a limb for Nutting, but emoneypitt's examples about past spending that hasn't panned out is strong.  The Pirates have just been awful in identifying good talented players, either those already in MLB or those via the draft and that more than anything has been the reason for the 17 years of losing. For me, the moment of truth for Nutting will be when we have the foundation of a strong team and whether Nutting pays to keep most of that foundation.  If a roster purge takes place similar to what happened this year, then I'll cross over and join the other downtrodden former Pirate fans.

Keep in mind that we have recent local examples of owners spending less in bad years.  From 1986-1988 before the salary cap, I remember the PG (or the Press) reporting that the Steelers had the lowest payroll in the NFL from 1986-1988.  We missed the playoffs all 3 years and I think had losing records during those years.  Yes, even the Rooneys are businessmen and will not overpay for a team that is lousy.  The difference of course is that the Steeler's had won before and would soon win again so they (deservedly) get the benefit of a doubt.  

Mark, your posts on this blog and on PBC are always very thorough, researched and well-thought-out.  That said:  Shut Up.

Seriously, shut up.  I'll never understand why anyone would stand on the side of Nutting.  Smizik's column is dead on.  Just open the books.  Yes yes yes.  I've heard all of your arguments that they are a private company.  But -- as Bob articulately described them -- they are a public institution.  I cannot think of one other for-profit business that is as tied-to and reliant on a community as professional sports team ... especially baseball.  They receive financial support for their stadium.  They have a federal anti-trust exemption.  Frankly, there are only so many places in the country that baseball can put 30 teams ... so they NEED Pittsburgh.  It is not unreasonable to ask them to be direct about their finances.  If they are not hiding anything, what are the downsides to them?  If you ask a typical business to open up their books, it could provide competitive intelligence to other companies in its field.  but the Pittsburgh Pirates compete (financially) with no other professional baseball team.  The Cleveland Indians and Washington Nationals may have a few border wars for fans with the Bucs, but it's largely insignificant.  But opening the books, the Pirates will not be worse off than if they keep them closed.

That is, unless they are hiding something.

Which they are.

Mark, let me know whether you get that job you're applying for with the PBC front office...

Bob,

Great reporting on your part and I can assure all the Pirate Kool Aid drinkers, Jason Stark does NOT print lies.  He is detailed, reputable and honest--the antithesis of the Nuttings.

However, the PG--other than Bob Smizik, continues to disappoint with their coverage of this worthless team.  Today, we read this wonderful article about Jose Tabata, as if he were the new Roberto Clemente.

Why the heck, during the middle of football season, are we getting phony PR from the Post Gazette about this minor league baseball team??

Nothing should be positive about what Nutting, Coonelly and office boy Huntington have done to this organization.

In a city like Philly or New York the newspapers would be committed to running this guy out of town rather  printing accolades about an unproven minor league player.

Gergenstein, well written and well thought out post.

I do recall DK doing a story a few years back stating that the Pirates revenues with tickets sold amounted to about $100 million per year.  Half was going to the major league roster for active payroll and those no longer on the roster who had guaranteed contracts.   The remainder went to debt payments (about $8 million a year?) on the stadium, player benefits, staff salaries, draft and the cost of the minor league teams in the system.  According to that column, it left little if anything for increasing payroll.

These new figures would appear to amount to more than a $100 million with tickets sold, parking, concessions and whatever else but not all that much relatively speaking.

I also recall reading something that looked into the way baseball teams cook the books.  Might've been around the 1994 shutdown.  Nearly all MLB teams earn a good profit but because of the way they do their accounting, they all have the opportunity to show enormous paper losses if they need to, or choose to.  I"m not a CPA and I don't recall the specifics, but if I did my accounting that way, I wouldn't want anybody examining my books either.

I recall with clarity that at Nutting's opening press conference he acted as though he was greatly offended that the media would even question the way his family ran the team.  He's either totally out of touch with reality or plain does not give a damn.  Either way, he's in charge and probably feels like he's done this city a favor by purchasing the team and keeping it here. I'd like for the Nuttings to sell too, but, in actuality, it isn't like there is a line of buyers knocking down the door to buy this team which exists in a bad business model.  (don't even bring up Cuban - he's all talk).

In the end, MLB is a lot like the English Premier League.  You've got about 4-6 teams which can actually win the league, a middle class which muddles along and a lower tier which has no chance to compete with the Manchester United's of the league but still enjoy being in the EPL because of the gigantic revenue check that they get and the ability to bring the world's premier talent into their stadium when the visiting team comes to town.   And that's about where we are as Pirate fans.

62-99. Spin that one kool-aid drinkers.

Stop supporting this club. Its plain and simple make them field a respectable team. Let them play in front of a bunch of empty seats. Its the only way to truely show your disdain for the Pirate Organization, their management and their owner.

JL58, the problem is that not showing up doesn't matter.  If the Bucs are getting 80 million before they sell a single seat, then they are in decent position regardless of what the fans do.

As people do the math on the Bucs revenue, one point people forget is that there is a lot of advertising in the stadium that surely generates a significant amount of revenue for the club.  I suspect there are also other community partnerships where the Bucs receive revenue ("official health provider of the PBC")

Back around 1996, the late great Kevin McClatchy said "We can’t be here long term if we can’t put a competitive team on the field. We need a new stadium to be competitive.” Let's see, PNC opened in 2001.  Nine seasons and that competitive team is yet to emerge.  Public money down the tubes as well.  At least it's a great place for watching fireworks, an after game concert, and a beautiful view of the city.  So we have that going for us, which is nice.

If nobody is in the Stadium, will that affect advertising dollars? Bet it will eventually... I realize it may not affect much, however as powerless fans we are limited in how we protest this abomination of an organization, and the embarrassment of playing in front of no fans might change things... Might.

MarkinDallas, Regarding your statement: "Money will only be important when the Pirates want to keep McCutchen, Alvarez and Lincoln for 8-10 years instead of 5-6. If the Pirates are winning and the people are packing PNC in 5 years, and the Pirates have not locked up their 4+ WAR players, then you have a beef."

Haven't we been hearing this statement every few years since '92? If we win and if we pack the house, THEN you have a right to complain. In the meantime sheeple, just continue to march through the turnstiles. Of course the Pirates will not be winning in 5 years, so they will "blow things up" and "rebuild" (using the cheapest materials available of course, young players), then we will have another 5 year wait.

Can there really be people out there blind or dumb enough to continue to believe the same story over and over? Did the Great Pumpkin come this year?

Only a salary cap and floor will make major league baseball an honest game. At this point the Pirates are a cross between a minor league team, the Washington Generals, and a prostitute, with the worst qualities of each.  

Roll out the next 5 year plan!!!

Excellent Carl Spackler drop, PittDad.

I don't want $10 million spent on Matt Morris, or for another situation where the Pirates bid against themselves to enrich Pat Meares or Derek Bell or throw $60 million at a singles hitting catcher with a bad attitude.   If this group is banking a ton of cash so that they can keep Clutch and....and...well I'm stumped, whomever else proves worthy over the next 4.5 years then that's cool, I'm on board.  Emptying an account for Rick Ankiel isn't going to matter this year so I'd just as soon that they banked it and resigned Duke, Maholm & Ohlendorf when the time comes.

The problem is of course that until this ownership does sign people AND INTENDS TO KEEP THEM TO BUILD THE TEAM, I have not a shred of faith in them nor in their intentions.

62-99. Spin that one kool-aid drinkers.

====================

Demery,

What does that have anything to do with the Pirates financials?

ForbesFielder  wrote re: Open your books, Mr. Nutting!

on Wed, Nov 25 2009 6:11 AM

@Paul H:

>>>3. Governor Ed Rendell was involved in pushing for public financing of PNC Park.  Now it's time for the Governor to revisit his project and ask Bob Nutting to "show me the money"! <<<

Rendell was elected to his first term in 2002, one year after PNC Park opened, and many years after the financing was secured.

================================================

ForbesFielder,

Thanks for the correction.  Point still is that the Governor should help pry open Nutting's books since the taxpayers of Pennsylvania helped finance PNC Park.  We were promised a winning team. Though the promise may have been made too casually, what we've gotten is a laughingstock.

Bob -

Why the deletion of my post/  UNBELIEVEABLE!

Help....Obama,..... Bob has once again infringed on my free speech!

That is, unless they are hiding something.

Which they are.

================================

So all private companies are "hiding" something b/c they don't openly disclose their financial information?

(Dejan Kovacevic's coverage of Pirates finances has been excellent. -- Bob Smizik)

=======================================

Why then, Bob, if Dejan's coverage has been so spot on, do you incite the masses by writing a blog post like the one above?  Shouldn't we all know this as it HAS been covered by Dejan?  Excellently, as you put it?

Yet, Stark writes one, singular, uno, article and everyone bowel  movements in their pants.  That's actually more amazing than the few of us that choose to support the team.

Nutting is pocketing the profits!  Say it aint so!  That is about as shocking as seeing terrible towels at a Steelers game.  That boy got some splaining to do.  I hope the big market owners revolt against this clown.  Whatever, their not getting any money from me.

I think that it is somewhat unfortunate for us fans that the Pirates are owned by someone that uses the team as part of their overall business plan. I don't claim to know a thing about the Nuttings' business ventures but something tells me that profit from the Pirates' operation has value to the Nuttings. Most of the other sports franchises are probably treated as hobbies for those owners. Looking at some of the other owners' profiles and you will see that they are noted for other business entities and not just what team they own.

With that being said, we are somewhat fortunate that someone stepped up and rescued the Pirates. They probably shouldn't even be here. But they are here because they are well run. Unfortunately, that doesn't translate to winning, which is all a fan cares for. Did we all forget about Howard Baldwin?

What a month this has been.  First, Bob finally recognizes that the Steelers head coach is responsible for some losses, now this!

Smizik has finally seen the light.  The Pirates benefit greatly from a PUBLIC financed ballpark.  I emailed Bob years ago with this very point - private company or not, Nutting "owes" the public some accountability.  OR, he could just pre-refund the bonds that financed the stadium, and then it would be a totally private company.

I believe baseball has an anit-trust exemption; even if they don't, they have an closely intertwined relationship with the government.  If the government wanted to they could force more openness.  Maybe Obama will have time to straighten out baseball finances once he gets GM, Chrysler, Fannie, Freddie, AIG and the student loan business back on their feet.

The Nuttings don't have to open their books for the PG to figure out the Pirates finances.  The PG was one of the original investors that stole the francise from the Galbreaths in 1986 and continued to be until it cashed out a few years ago.  Surely there is someone left in your accounting department who can explain to you Bob.  How much money did the PG make off its investment in the Pirates (as long as we are opening up the books)?

A number of post are making the argument that the Pirates are a private business, and therefore, no need to open the books.  

While this is true, the Pirates also operate a business monopoly, protected by the US Congress.  

In most private business, if I do not like the product (or ownership) I can choose to give my businessto their competition.  In this case, their is no competition, legally operated monopoly.  

Pirate fans need to form a grass roots effort to remove this ownrship group.  

Bob,

You have actually changed your tone, if not your stance. Earlier this year, your blog posts spoke of giving Nutting a chance. Yes, I know new information has come to light, but most of the people in here and in Dejan's blog understood that, one way or another, Nutting is taking advantage of his monopoly position in the Major League Pittsburgh baseball market to the detriment of the public that financed his revenue-generating stadium even before the 80 million number came out.

The only time I am going to care about the Nutting finances is if they tell everyone that the Pirates are losing money, then I will care.

Making money is a good thing, I hope they are!

Since they are running the organization the way I would do it, I don't really have any complaints, so if you knew my name you could add it to the Nuttings name, because I would run this team the same way.

Does anyone think that knowing Nutting's finances is going to change anything anyway?

By the way I believe that the Union gets a report on the Pirates spending as well as Selig.

Great article, Bob.

Let's not forget another very important point, folks.  Back in 2003, when Brewers' fans were skeptical about how that ownership was running their club (Bud Selig and now his daughter), they agreed to open their books.  Here's the link:

www3.jsonline.com/.../index.aspx

I understand those that say we're just being naive, but if Bud Selig's former club can do it, there shouldn't be any reason why the Pirates can't...

Will it ever happen ??  Doubtful.  However, if the spotlight keeps shining on the Bucs' finances, you never know.

Why didn't I, did you read the rest of my post?

Quit hiding behind "They are a private company".  Show me another "private" company that relies on the their public status more.  They receive local tax exemptions.  They receive local financial support in the form of a favorable stadium agreement.  They have a federal antitrust exemption.  They are a form of civic institution -- they are the PITTSBURGH Pirates and use that civic bond in order to engender the loyalty of their patrons.  The list can go on.  This is not a private IT company.  Or a private pizza shop.  So you trying to compare their rights to ... say... Primanti Brothers is ridiculous.  They have a monopoly on premium professional baseball in the city of Pittsburgh.  You have no other options than them.  So the free market cannot help us here.  To defend their "rights" is ridiculous.  They are a monopoly who are abusing that status by providing an inferior product to the citizens of Pittsburgh while pocketing their revenues.  After 17 years, if they disagree with that premise, then they should take the proactive step to open their books to prove us wrong.

Or, our state and federal legislature should do it for them.

Let's hope leadoff is not next in line to own the Pirates.  

In light of the news of the $80 million passive income, if I were an employee of the Pirates, I would be asking for a big raise.  I would love to hear the reason why they don't get the raise.  "We are in a recession".  What a joke.

It's bad enough that this team depresses me in July (about the time I stop watching), but I definitely don't need this in November.  Gotta stop reading . . . Must stop.  Time to concentrate on Pens, Pitt, and Steelers.  The real teams in this town.

You have no other options than them.

=======================

Um. Yes you do.  There are 29 other teams in the MLB.  You can support one of them.  There is no professional baseball league of Pittsburgh.  It's Major League Baseball, and you can choose who to support (both emotionally and financially).  Just like when buying a sandwich, I can get Subway, Primanti Bros., Wawa (if you're from the Eastern side of this state), local sub shop, etc.  There are many factors that come down to making that decision, but in the end, if I am not satisfied with my sandwich, I'll try someone else's.  

And I wasn't trying to compare their rights with anyone.  I was simply making the point that, private companies don't disclose their financials to the public b/c they don't have to (not BECAUSE they are hiding something...they could be, but to assume that's the reason for them not opening their books is, how did you put it, ridiculous)

(Tale a second from brewing up another batch of Kool-Aid, Mark, and tell me where I asked Nutting to spend a penny. I didn't. I asked for some sort of public accounting of what he is doing with his profits. -- Bob Smizik)

=============

What Kool Aid am I drinking, Bob? Am I saying Nutting is a benevolent father to us all and only deserves our praise and adulation?

No. I'm simply saying there is every evidence to say that Nutting is spending at least as much money as the other owners. That's all!

You, on the other hand, while you are not asking Nutting to spend more money, apparently feel slighted that he is making a profit. Why would you be offended by that if you don't want him to spend more money?

Let me ask you this point blank...Do you believe that Nutting is unduly profiting MORE THAN OTHER OWNERS?

If you do believe that, please show me evidence of other owners that are profiting less with similar circumstances.

I'm going to guess - you can't do it.

But please try.

You defenders of the Pirates are pathetic... Losing season after losing season...you get what you deserve.

But Why Didn't I, most private companies have no reason to do so.  The Pirates -- on the other hand -- most certainly do have that reason.  Yes, legally, they don't HAVE to.  But they are disagreeing with news articles that come out about the state of their finances.  If they believe these reports are inaccurate, then prove them wrong!

By choosing not to open their books to dispute these news stories, they are implicitly confirming the accuracy of these articles.

Now, on your first point, I'm going to give you a pass on that one.  You're obviously having a rough day.  At some point, you'll have to explain to me how someone who lives and works in Pittsburgh can (reasonably) be a season ticket holder of the New York Yankees.  Or, for that matter, attend games with any frequency.

I think it is fair to say that if you want to be an active fan of professional baseball (meaning: regularly attend games), and you live in Pittsburgh, you largely need to be a patron of the Pittsburgh Pirates.

I can't believe I had to explain that point ... but, okay, maybe the tryptophan has already started kicking in...

The Nuttings have done nothing wrong here. They have put the best product they could have on the field year in and year out. They had to trade away some dead weight to maximize profits. I think for keeping the Pirates in Pittsburgh we should rename Carnaige Mellon to Nutting Mellon. Thank you Nutting family for all you do for our city.

Mark, maybe I've missed this in your other posts, but do you believe it is FAIR for Nutting (who undisputedly has the worst run franchise in baseball) to profit as much as other owners?

@Fat Jimmy

He is a great business man. Don't fault the man just because you wish you would have turned a 14 million dollar profit this past year.

I go to the games for the great hotdogs!

I think it is fair to say that if you want to be an active fan of professional baseball (meaning: regularly attend games), and you live in Pittsburgh, you largely need to be a patron of the Pittsburgh Pirates.

==============================

I live in South Jersey, and I support the Pirates.  I go to games when I can (when I get back to Western PA to see the relatives), and I bought the Extra Innings package on TV.  As you know I regualrly read and post on the PBC blog.  I constatnly talk about the Pirates with my friends (who have all different affiliations) much to their dismay.  

You don't have to be a season ticket holder or "regularly attend games" to be an active fan.  That's being extremely naive.

And, I didn't say you had to be a fan of the Yankees (I just said there are 29 other teams.  You don't like your current one, pick another)  The Indians are 2 hrs away from Pittsburgh.  You could "reasonably be a season ticket holder and regularly attend games there.  Are people in Pittsburgh not allowed to root for an NBA team because they can't be an "active" (by your def.) fan of a team?  

And I'm the one that's had too much Turkey!

If the Nuttings wanted to loot the team, they easily could. According to DK's article from January 2009 when McClatchy was bought out, here is their remaining board.

McClatchy's departure reduces the Pirates' board of directors to five: Bob Nutting; his father, Ogden, chairman and publisher of the Ogden Newspapers chain; his brother, Bill, vice president of Ogden Newspapers; Duane Witman, Ogden's chief financial officer; and North Carolina businessman Don Beaver.

That being said, if they were taking the money out and heading over to the slopes with it, wouldn't one of the other owners who is subsidizing the revenue sharing call them out on it? Maybe it's happened and I don't recall.

I'm always thankful to see ANY kind of pressure put on Bob Nutting and his regime.

It is the only way that there is ANY hope of ridding Pittsburgh of the choke hold they have had on the Pirates since 1996 (and please don't respond with other opinions, as G. Ogden Nutting took a firm grip on this franchise in '96).

There is no way on earth that Nutting is opening his books. Even if he chose to do this, he would have numerous shady accountants cook them deeper than a huge Thanksgiving dinner.

I think what bothers me the most these days is the persistent onslaught of propaganda we get from many of the Pirate bloggers.

This is what helps to keep the Nutting machine rolling year after year after year.....Soon to equal eighteen losing seasons.

MarkinDallas - I assume you're talking Mark Cuban in your name.

Please....For God sake....Give us a break!

I maintain that if Bob Nutting & crew committed open mass-murder....You would defend them with all your might.

How could someone defend this regime?!....and mightily defend it with thousands of word each day in the PBC Blog....and now here?!

I'm shocked...I'm flabbergasted...I'm sick of it.

Please....Everyone that that knows they have been ripped off by Bob Nutting & regime fight back.

This front office has proven time & time again that they don't want anywhere close to a winning MLB team....And they will go to extremes to protect their profit on a massive scale.

That is fact....And anything else (no matter how many words are involved) is fiction.

Just look at the record....

I don't feel ripped of by the Nutting family. I go to the game to see a world class baseball team and eat world class hotdogs. I just love the dollar dog nights! A dollar hotdog! Rip off... I think not!

There is nothing wrong -- or at least nothing illegal -- about playing "Billy (Bean) Ball."  Going with a lower payroll, trying to field a competitive team with young hungry players.  Several teams do it with occasional success: As, Twins, Marlins.

Teams that choose the Billy Ball approach, and do it right, will win sometimes, lose sometimes (more often).  About the same percentage as a utility infielder, maybe 25% winning -- or at leat competitive -- seasons (say 1 for 4).

The Pirates are 0-for-17, and soon to be 0-for-20.  Those guys get sent back to the minors, usually never to return.  Which is where the Buccos' talent is, with a few notable exceptions (McCutcheon).

However, the trades (errrr, salary dumps...) of all those same younger up-and-comer players at the deadline last year is not Billy Ball, it was something else.  Billy Ball is at least trying.  They have different names for teams like the Pirates(not even trying to win): quitters, losers.

I laughed out loud when I read the owner saying the Pirates were the best-run organization is sports.  Only if winning and losing don't count.

Bob. Taking a step back for a moment what amazes me about your blog this morning is the sheer volume of well thought out comment that fans are making here about the Pirates-right in the middle of Stiller/Penns season.

I sincerely wish Bob Nutting would take a hard look at the passion these folks have for the Pirates. If he wishes to have a team that pays off then do what is necessary to make them winners.

I have no doubt that PNC sellouts would be routine if he seeds the organization. Maybe Nutting should get rid of those newspapers anyway. I don''t think its rocket science that most folks get news on the internet these days. After all PG+ is a good idea.

And ski resorts? All the Baby Boomers are getting old.  Maybe he should build mountain geriatric communities instead.

Bob may want to give the Pirates a large dose of fiscal love. They just may end up as a cash cow, and  a winner. Why couldn't they be both?

As far as opening the books goes I am sure that Mr. Nutting can get an accountant team together that can make them sing any way necessary. The suits usually do a good job of that.

What I really hope for is that Bob Nutting realizes how a very successful Pirate team could benefit everyone financially. Especially Bob Nutting. After all the Steeler Nation makes money for a lot of people, not only the Rooney family.

Frank and Neil tell us they are doing all that right now;  Well we will see when it's time for the big Andrew McCutcheon or Ross Ohlendorf contracts.  If they tell us they can't afford to keep those types of players at least then we can all say BULL S..T.

Fat jimmy said - Mark, maybe I've missed this in your other posts, but do you believe it is FAIR for Nutting (who undisputedly has the worst run franchise in baseball) to profit as much as other owners?

====================

Jimmy -

I think it's pretty clear that Nutting is profiting LESS than other owners. That is why I am so appalled that these accusations are being thrown at him.

And BTW, I don't know him or anyone associated with the Pirates at all.

Why would I spend so much time refuting the garbage the unwashed hordes are spewing? Because I want the Pirates to do well. I want the Pirates to win, and I believe it is patently unfair to vilify someone who is trying to do the best they can to turn around this garbage bin of a franchise that was the Pittsburgh Pirates of 2007.

Once again, take a look at my examples above and on the PBC blog. There are 5 similar franchises that are spending proportionally less on payroll than in Bob Nutting.

Per my above post....There goes Mark again!!!

Continually spewing not opinion....but propaganda on the Pirate money machine.

A machine that has brought us nothing but losing seasons for almost 18 years.

It's enough to make you sick.

Yeah Mark, how can anyone possible viligy Bob Nutting?  He's been doing his best to make this team win!!!

Daniel Moskos anyone?  Matt Morris? Cesar Izturis?

*facepalm*

daquido said...I maintain that if Bob Nutting & crew committed open mass-murder....You would defend them with all your might.

==================

The last I heard, the most Bob Nutting has been accused of is making a $15M profit in an industry where the average is $20M.

Whose position is more ludicrous?

Mine, which says Bob Nutting is entitled to make a profit in his business as long as it is not unduly affecting the ability of the Pirates to field a competitive team, or yours, which apparently equates Bob Nutting's transgression of making a profit to mass murder?

MarkInDallas: "... I believe it is patently unfair to vilify someone who is trying to do the best they can to turn around this garbage bin of a franchise that was the Pittsburgh Pirates of 2007. ..."

You can't be serious. Doing the best they can? If they're profiting millions of dollars they can do better, by reinvesting those profits into making the team better.

Don't take a single dime in profit until you win. Spend more on draft picks to make sure you sign them all. Already spent more on the draft than most other teams this year? So what, spend even more. You need to if you want to restock the talent pool in this terrible organization. You have to go above and beyond what is "normal" for other franchises when you've lost for so long and the cupboard is so bare. You have to prove you mean it when you say you are determined to build a winner. Put your money where your mouth is. Don't waste it at the major league level, but spend it, all of it after expenses, to improve the system and get back to winning as soon as possible.

This comparing to other MLB teams is nonsense. No more profit than others, spend just as much on the draft as others. So what! They haven't lost for 17 straight years like you have.

The last I heard, the most Bob Nutting has been accused of is making a $15M profit in an industry where the average is $20M.

Whose position is more ludicrous?

Mine, which says Bob Nutting is entitled to make a profit in his business as long as it is not unduly affecting the ability of the Pirates to field a competitive team, or yours, which apparently equates Bob Nutting's transgression of making a profit to mass murder?

======================

Spin it in every direction you'd like Mark.

You know what I'm talking about.

daquido said...There goes Mark again!!! Continually spewing not opinion....but propaganda on the Pirate money machine.

============

What is opinion and propaganda that I am spewing?

What facts do I have wrong?

-------

Forbes estimates the Pirates' profit last year at $15M.

They estimate the Marlins' profit at $43M.

They estimate the Nationals' profit at $42M.

They estimate the Rays' profit at $29M.

They estimate the Twins' profit at $29M.

They estimate the Rockies' profit at $29M.

They estimate the Padres' profit at $22M.

-------

What is it about these numbers that you don't understand? The Pirates are making less profit than these other teams which are either in similar size markets or have similar records!

PittDad said - Yeah Mark, how can anyone possible viligy Bob Nutting?  He's been doing his best to make this team win!!! Daniel Moskos anyone?  Matt Morris? Cesar Izturis?

==============

These kinds of player acquisitions are exactly why Nutting decided to take over the team from McClatchy.

You'll notice that since the new regime  has been installed, these kinds of things have not happened.

What you are not even realizing is that they are trying to do things the right way now, and all people can do is yell "17 years!"

I'm supposed to look at a bunch of numbers you've slapped together from some site that supposedly has team profits???

Gimme a break!

Look at THE fact....We're approaching losing season #18.

That figure is unmatched in the history of US professional sports.

How long will it take for you?

How many more losing seasons?

How many more giveaway trades?

This is a franchise run by professional scheisters and "almost" everyone knows it.

I'll take ANYONE but the Nuttings as owners....and that would in include Mark Cuban.

Stop pushing this farce on people!

Mark, try and see if you can personally shout down every poster.

It doesn't seem to be working. 62-99.

daquido - I'm supposed to look at a bunch of numbers you've slapped together from some site that supposedly has team profits???

=================

This is Forbes magazine - you may have heard of it - not just some random internet site.

These are the most respected independent estimates and they are done every year for MLB teams.

MLB itself hates these numbers and says they are too optimistic.

markindallas: Bob told you to put down the Kool Aid.  Let me get this straight, the Nuttings will not open their books for the taxpayers who funded their stadium but they did for Forbes Magazine?  Estimate? Based on what numbers?  What part of the $80 million windfall don't you understand?  Those teams you cite earned a profit because success breeds profits.  The Nuttings are profiting from the Pirates simply because they have a pulse.

Demery - yeah, I know. 17 years. I got it. Just try to understand it was not because they didn't spend money. They were just very bad at what they did for a very long time.

You can't grow a tree from a seed in a day.

These kinds of player acquisitions are exactly why Nutting decided to take over the team from McClatchy.

You'll notice that since the new regime  has been installed, these kinds of things have not happened.

What you are not even realizing is that they are trying to do things the right way now, and all people can do is yell "17 years!"

=================================

Jeff Karstens - Recently dumped

Brandon Moss - Utility OF at best in trade for Jason Bay

Craig Hansen - Can't throw a strike, and has now been on the injury list for close to a year

Jose Ascanio - Damaged goods from the Cubs for Grabow & Gorzy

And now that we're on to the vet portion of the show....

Akinori Iwamura -  Traded a potential good, young reliever for a 32 year old 2nd baseman with a torn ACL...and one year left on his contract.

Just a few of these recent great moves you speak of.....

MarkInDallas said - These kinds of player acquisitions are exactly why Nutting decided to take over the team from McClatchy.

You'll notice that since the new regime  has been installed, these kinds of things have not happened.

What you are not even realizing is that they are trying to do things the right way now, and all people can do is yell "17 years!"

=========

ROFLMAO

Mark, you better check to see who was in charge when those 3 players were acquired.

And holy cow, look who was defending Nutting back in April:

community.post-gazette.com/.../in-defense-of-bob-nutting.aspx

Even used the same picture in that blog. LOL.

Although that doesn't surprise me in the least.  Seems like someone is changing his tune, yes?  Bob, glad to see that you're starting to see the light.

(I am not changing my tune. I defended Nutting against the people who blame him for everything. I still stand behind that.  ---- Bob Smizik)

The Jason Bay trade is looking better and better isn't it?  Jeff Karstens was just designated for assignment.  We paid Eric Hinske to win the World Series with the Yankees.

Yep.  The new regime is much better than the McClatchy regime.

(Hinske was not in the Bay trade. He was signed as a free agent after the 2008 season.  -- Bob Smizik)

msb46 - if you believe the $80M estimate, then you should believe the Forbes estimates as well. They all come from the same sources.

And no, no team has opened their books to Forbes or Stark or Smizik. These estimates come from what is known about the different revenue sources and they are put together with the answers from questionaires that Forbes sends out to many people knowledgeable in the MLB industry.

What I don't understand is why is $80M so shocking? The Pirates take in only $26M in ticket sales. So what if between their national media and licensing deals and revenue sharing they receive $80M?

What does that even say to you unless you have the context of what the total expenses are?

Seriously, these people like Stark and Smizik should be smarter than that.

Let's say you are playing poker with someone who has 1000 chips and you have only 100. You each share equally 30% of your chips (330). That means you now have 235 and he has 865. Are you now able to bet chips as if you had more than the other guy? No. You have lessened your disadvantage, that's all.

That is how it works in MLB. The Pirates will always have a low payroll compared to other teams until they can raise their own revenue past other teams on the totem pole.

Well, OK, good. Now we are back to questioning baseball moves. I'm fine with questioning baseball moves. I personally think they are on the right track, but that will bear itself out in the next 2-3 years, because it takes about 5-6 years to turn around a franchise train wreck.

Take a look at how long it took to turn around to 1950 Pirates. The majority of the 1960 Pirates were acquired in the early 1950's when they were horrible.

Weren't the Pirates horrible in the 90s?

Bob,

With all due respect, I think you've asked the wrong question to the wrong guy, but for the right reasons.  Allow me to suggest the correct question (to get the bottom-line answers you need) is to the Pirates scouting department: "Open your Player Evaluation Reports."

Because even if Nutting & Co. were willing to open their books (they obviously won't), what difference does that make?  If they cook the books to show a paper loss, that doesn't remove the sting of decades of losing.  And hypothetically, if they were netting $150 million instead of "only" $15M, that would be okay if they were winning.

The problem is they aren't winning, and won't anytime soon.  And it's highly debatable if they're even trying.

Out here the local papers asked the Rockies' owners the same questions, until 2007 when they went to the World Series.  It's clear the team is at least trying to win.  Now, the questions are about players, not dollars into owners coffers.  

When (if?) the Pirates can indeed prove they're at least trying to get better (unlikely, unless their scouts are unlucky at best, criminally negligent at worst), the dollars issues go away.

Mark,

You better get to work on whipping up a special batch of Thanksgiving Kool Aid!

Let's say this....

What is the point of obsessing over whatever kind of revenue sharing the Pirates have gotten? The fact of the matter is that Nutting took a public role in the team in 2007, booted McClatchy, hired entirely new front office and (most scouting) staff, opened a Dominican Academy and backed the whole sale decimation of repeated 90+ loss teams to restock the Minor League system and take a brutal beating from the national and local media, as well as talk show callers and bloggers....in fact, I'm not really aware of anyone who has mounted a public campaign supporting him.

NO AMOUNT OF ADDITIONAL REVENUE SHARING AND SPENDING POST 2007 WOULD HAVE MADE ANY OF THOSE TEAMS COMPETITIVE.

Regardless of the events of the last 15 years before 2007, for the first time, a complete and total top to bottom change has taken place in the organization and a clear plan put is in place.

The new team deserves the benefit of the doubt until such time it is proven that their draftees and tradees have been completely misevaluated.

That's it! The new management team has done nothing to indicate that they failed to put a championship caliber team on the field when they had the opportunity to do so. That opportunity never existed.

They've sucked for 17 years....let them suck another 2 under a new direction until the new management team is proven incompetent.

"(Dejan Kovacevic's coverage of Pirates finances has been excellent. -- Bob Smizik)"

It started that way when he first came on the beat however even as the issue has escalated, Dejan's coverage of the matter has tailed off significantly.

It's like a great big elephant in the room and DK doesn't want to talk about it.

The absolute best thing that could happen is for Nutting to sell this team to an owner that will spend money on proven free agents that aren’t in the twilight of their career.  An owner that isn’t afraid to draft the top rated prospect in the draft because they’re worried about what it will cost them. Perhaps a new owner will open the minds of some players and agents and let them consider this team as finally having some potential.  Nutting is doing a disservice to this team and this city.  Consumers aren’t expected to spend good money on faulty product.  With that in mind, why should people buy tickets for a Pirate product that is obviously sub standard.  I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone can go to the games.  

But it looks like Nutting is in it for the long haul and I can’t blame him since he’s making money hand over first right now.  I just hope that a portion of these gambles with prospects pays off in the next couple of years.  They’ve sold off many fan favorites in order to stock up for the future. It’s a PR disaster, but unfortunately it’s probably the only way they are going to turn it around.  The proof will be in the pudding.  Too bad they didn’t realize this years ago when they put millions upon millions of dollars our for washed up free agents.  If they make it work, I’ll give Nutting the credit he’s due.  But somehow I smell failure lurking around the corner.  I hope I’m wrong, but history isn’t on their side.

I’ll be waiting to see what happens if the Nats pass on Harper next draft.  If the Pirates don’t grab him, all bets are off.  Of course, they may not get that opportunity.

PittDad - The absolute best thing that could happen is for Nutting to sell this team to an owner that will spend money on proven free agents that aren’t in the twilight of their career.

===========

In 2009, there was not one team in any market under 4M people that had an impact free agent position player on their roster that they had signed as an impact player and actually performed as one.

Not one team.

Why do you think a different owner than Nutting would be able to get that done, when only 12 teams in the entire MLB were able to do it, and they all are in substantially larger markets than Pittsburgh?

PitDad:  "The absolute best thing that could happen is for Nutting to sell this team to an owner that will spend money on proven free agents that aren’t in the twilight of their career."

We had that owner for over 40 years in Mr. Galbreath and he was rewarded with indifference or hostility.  We complain now about them drawing 1.5 million to watch the team lose 99 games.  In the 1970s, when the Pirates were arguably the best team in baseball, they never drew 1.5 million.  When new ownership took over in 1986 they said they would rebuild the Pirates into winners.  They did (championship seasons in 1990-92) and attendance stank.  They said they had no more money to sink into the club and needed a new stadium deal to stay in Pittsburgh.  We built them the stadium and except the first year of decent attendance, failed to show up.  We've got the ownership and the team we deserve.

There is no knight in shining armor out there that is going to spend his money to field a winning team that you can enjoy but fail to support with your attendance.

In 2009, there was not one team in any market under 4M people that had an impact free agent position player on their roster that they had signed as an impact player and actually performed as one.

Not one team.

Why do you think a different owner than Nutting would be able to get that done, when only 12 teams in the entire MLB were able to do it, and they all are in substantially larger markets than Pittsburgh?

==============

There also isn't one team in the "history of sports" that has had 17 losing seasons....and counting.

If you can't compete....Sell the team!

Bob

Your passion on this topic comes through loud and clear.

Others in the media should follow your lead.

Bloggers:

The Stadium is State Funded, so in addition to the fine posts you are making here, if you want action (books opened etc...) what you really need to do is contact your local State Legislator (believe me there are plenty of them) intelligently state your case and tell them as a PA Taxpayer you demand a full accounting of the Stadium funding and in particular whether the implied terms of the sweetheart lease have been honored by the Pirates...Why should our tax dollars be given to a business to make the stadium literally rent free??

Think about it...if you are running a business, your 2 largest costs are payroll and rent/mortgage...

With Revenue Sharing and Sweetheart Lease, the team is extremely profitable...  I don't need "open books" to tell me that, but then extent of the profitability should be disclosed.

For those that argue that the Pirates are "private" and don't need to open their books, my comment is "the rules change when you reach out for Public funding", which was done in this case to the tune of over $200 million..

Give your State Rep a good project to work on...

Don't keep raising our taxes and giving the Pirates a pass on this deal....

"It is the only way that there is ANY hope of ridding Pittsburgh of the choke hold they have had on the Pirates since 1996 (and please don't respond with other opinions, as G. Ogden Nutting took a firm grip on this franchise in '96)."

-daquido_bazzini

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nutting contributed $2 million to the $90 million purchase in 1996.

MarkInDallas is owning these discussions.  Apparently, most people don't appreciate common sense and logic.

Nutting contributed $2 million to the $90 million purchase in 1996.

====================

Even IF it was 2 mil in '96 (and apparently is was much more shortly after '96)....People like the Nuttings don't throw around a couple million for the pure fun of it. It was the beginning of the "regime takeover"....Glad to see you're enjoying it!

Nutting contributed $2 million to the $90 million purchase in 1996.

====================

Even IF it was 2 mil in '96 (and apparently is was much more shortly after '96)....People like the Nuttings don't throw around a couple million for the pure fun of it. It was the beginning of the "regime takeover"....Glad to see you're enjoying it!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

They owned 1/4 of the team by 2003.  The Nuttings did not have firm control until January 2007.  And yes, I have thoroughly enjoyed the direction of the team since that point.  It has been 100 times better than the disastrous years prior to 2007.

They owned 1/4 of the team by 2003.  The Nuttings did not have firm control until January 2007.  And yes, I have thoroughly enjoyed the direction of the team since that point.  It has been 100 times better than the disastrous years prior to 2007.

=========================

Sorry....Don't believe you!

G. Ogden had his mitts on this thing by '96 at the latest.

You don't throw in millions, sit on the board and NOT be involved in decision making.

2003....That's laughable!

I'm glad you've enjoyed it because it's been going on for 17 years, and the Nuttings are responsible for "at least" 13 of those years.

Oh...and by the way....The results are the same now as they were back in '93.

Giveaway players....And pocket money...THE worst franchise in sports.

While you continue to "enjoy" it.....I'll continue to voice my displeasure about this regime.

Mark and Matt-

Go have a pitcher of Kool Aid together.  You've both been proven wrong, so nobody is "owning" anyone.  If you want to follow Nutting like he's the man with all the answers, then knock yourselves out.  I hope the Pirates finally have it figured out, but they still pull bonehead moves that continue to make people wonder.  We'll see how this works out long term.  I hope they suceed, but they need to show imrprovement soon.  I've had my fill of them for now.  I'll watch from afar because they've just about destoyed all my trust in the organization.  I don't care who the owner and management is or has been.  I've given about all I can give as a fan and I'm tired of what they've done in the last 17 years.  They need to earn me back as a fan and I know many people feel that way.  They may be finally headed in the right direction, but there's no guarantee because they have no proven track record.  We shall see.

I'm sure you don't believe it, since it doesn't support your argument.  But those are the facts that Dejan has reported.

www.post-gazette.com/.../753923-63.stm

Now I will return to making Kool-Aid and looking at actual information.

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I must be one of the very few that is patient with the Pirates ... FO ...management .... Nuttings ..... whomever .....

.

Yummmm. I love fact filled Kool-Aid. No nutritiously filled with logic.

Delicious.

All that matters is when the name Nutting became an investor in the Pittsburgh Pirates....1996.

There are some that say even earlier, but I'll go with '96.

It's just so happens that '96 was the last time (with a low budget team) the Pirates competed at all.

Then...They even dumped some of those people in '97!

The story is ALL too familiar.

It goes round & round & round....

Yummmm....17 losing seasons...And another one coming in April Mark!

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Bob - If we are going to ask the Pirates to open their books on the stated reason that they are tenants at a public stadium, then is it not also appropriate to ask the Steelers and Penguins to do the same? Presumably when the SEA lawyers negotiated the lease, this could have been a condition. It probably would have been but for the fact that no one would dare ask the Rooneys to do the same, so that is probably why the SEA overlooked what would have been a pretty easy condition to include (and in my mind within the realm of reason).

You mention goodwill as a potential reason for disclosure. In my mind, this is a much greater justification than the public stadium argument. In truth, steep declines in ticket sales would be the best medicine for an owner who the public perceives as fleecing them. But I don't know that enough people will ever buy that argument - most of them don't read the paper.

I think a lot of the recent information on this subject has been disseminated courtesy of Scott Borass. As a player advocate, he has a justified interest in making sure all of the available money is spent on his clients.

I am sure of one thing - if the books were open and it did not reveal that Nutting was pocketing millions, there would be a lot of disappointed people.

Batavia,

Please tell me you are intelligent enough to recognize the differences between the Steelers, Penguins, and Nuttings.

Ridiculous comment.

Dear Mr. Nutting:

I didn't renew my season tickets this year after four straight years.

I doubt that I'm alone.

MarkInDallas and his fellow blind supporters, you guys act like people are only asking the Pirates to spend on player payroll. No, some of us would be happy if they spend money on improving their scouting and development. I STILL HAVE NOT GOTTEN A GOOD ANSWER SPARED OF ANY VAGUE GENERALITIES THAT TELLS US HOW THE PIRATES HAVE ACTUALLY IMPROVED THEIR SCOUTING AND DEVELOPMENT to a SIGNIFICANT extent. It would be foolish to spend an extra 20M on player payroll right now. But what about taking that money and making the baseball operations one of the best in the country? Do we have any evidence they are trying to get the best scouts money can buy?

If the Pirates can do that, then I will give them a few years to build a good team at which point I will fully need them to increase payroll by 100% of today's level.

(Saneman:  I agree with you that it is imperative the Pirates improve their player evaluation skills. But there is no rating system for scouts. They could have hired an entire new scouting staff and few people could be able to tell the difference. --- Bob Smizik

Oh, and the Penguins deserve to make profits with the success they give the fans. You build a great team, you deserve to make a profit. It is obscene that Nuttings make millions each year despite such a show of incompetence. I am sick of Pirates fans who spend money rewarding failure. A bunch of people who need to get a life and not be blind sheep and are addicted to the Pirates to an unhealthy extent.

emoneypit: I call em as I see em and anyone who defends this franchise is (1) unaware of all the evidence of inept and greedy ownership, (2) doesn't care about winning and just wants to be entertained at PNC Park, (3) just plain stupid, or (4) a stooge.

You could be any of these but the tone of your posts is to justify the Pirates, so I picked (4) a stooge.

BTW, you'll have to find someone else to be your sweetheart, sorry, I'm not gay.

Thanks Bob for at least caring about the Pirates and us Pirates fans....but you are just fighting a lost battle.  As so many othe astute posters have already pointed out, even if Bobby Profitmaker would open his books, it would amount to more misleading and intentional subtrafuge.  I'm sure Bobby Profitmaker already has his spin doctors (many of whom are posting here and in other places with their koolaide drivel) working up highly spun numbers and story angles.  So what's the point?

Here's the bottom line we know for sure....Bobby Profitmaker spends as little as he can on the major league product without inciting a REALLY ugly mob.  And the results prove it as us Pirates fans get set to absorb our 18th straight losing season in 2010.  

Oh sure...we are getting lots of continued promises....promises that Bobby will spend when he has players worthy of spending on.  But his actions speak louder than his empty words show and any highly spun books opening would show.  Every time the Pirates do obtain or cultivate a player who is worthy of a major league uniform, they are salary dumped for the next bird in the bush and we get fed another round of promises.  And I hate to be the bearer of bad news to come....but that conundrum will never end as long as Bobby Profitmaker owns the team.

How can you honestly believe anything else at this point?

(If Nutting opens his books (ha ha ha), I would expect them to be examined not by people like me who would have no understanding of them, but by people who do this kind of work for a living and could legitimately determine how much profit is being made and where it's going. There are people who can do that. --- Bob Smizik  

NH:

Sure, the Penguins and Steelers build their teams with expensive free agents.   If they have a decent player approaching free agency, they spend as much as necessary to keep them.  See Faneca, Porter, Malone, Scuderi, etc.  The Pirates, on the other hand, are attempting to acquire impact players through the draft while supplementing them with cost-effective role players.  The Steelers and Penguins would never dream of doing that.

Oh, wait.

Yummmm....17 losing seasons...And another one coming in April Mark!

-------------

It's stunning that the Nutting-bashers don't realize that every time they utter the phrase "17 years," it undermines their credibility.

Nutting has not been running the team for all 17 years! Every time you complain about 17 years, you make it sound like you don't know what you're talking about. That's why Mark is winning this argument!

If you can't make a logical, reasonable argument without referring to things that happened under the previous ownership regime, you're never going to convince anybody of anything.

p.s. I'm a Nutting-basher myself. But we can't criticize him for stuff that happened before 2007 if we want to be taken seriously. You just come off as an uninformed bozo when you do that.

(I don't know what argument Mark is winning but he's certainly not winning the one with me. My original post called for Nutting to open his books -- nothing more. I know he won't do that but I thought it was worth the effort. I am well aware of how long Nutting has been involved with the team. It's not 17, but nor is it the two that you suggest.  If he has as much money coming in as appears to be the case, he should have been more proactive in keeping players, and that goes all the way back to Aramis Ramirez. --- Bob Smizik)

There is one thing you Pro-Nutters are winning....and that's getting your way.

The majority of loyal fans continue to get fleeced, and it's now been 17 YEARS....AT LEAST 13 of those years had the name Nutting in a very high position.

You people get your way EVERY year, as the Pirates continue to give away players from Aramis Ramirez to Jason Bay. All given away for minor league jesters.

MattB - Any talk of relating the Steelers or Penguins to the Pirates is plain ludicrous.

In the meantime...Line up for your Pirate tickets for another exciting season of losing!

Bob Nutting & Regime (which includes shady accountants) will laugh wildly all the way to Wheeling!

Open the books!

daquido:

We have already been over the fact that the Nuttings had only minor involvement before 2003.  Ignoring that will not make it less true.

Care to explain how the Steelers/Penguins way of business is different from the post-2007 Pirates? Obviously, those two teams have had more success than the Pirates, but the processes have been fairly similar.

Also, how would you prefer the Pirates build a winner? A little more than "Nutting is cheap" would go a long way in helping me see your point of view.

Matt - There's no sense in you or I wasting anymore time on this. You're convinced that the Pirates are somehow "magically" on the right track.

Being a lifetime Pirate fan, I put up with it silently till July '08. After those trades (giveaways) I finally reached my breaking point.

I am now convinced that this current regime will never succeed to any extent with the Pirates. Again...They give every real player they develop away for nobody's.

It's only a matter of time till they give McCutchen & Alvarez away.

The Steelers (and the Pens who I don't follow quite as much) do business the way it should be done.

If you're referring to the Steelers losing Porter or Faneca....They waited till they were both over 30....and they waited till they had able replacements in Harrison & Kemo. The Steelers didn't draft Ziggy Hood, and then turn around and trade Aaron Smith....ala the Pirates when they brought up McCutchen and traded McLough (for garbage by the way).

You build a winner by keeping your best people, adding other good people (as much as honest money will allow) and trying....and don't tell me Neil Huntington is trying to build a winner.

What you now have is a few would-be prospects that won't amount to a hill of beans.

I've seen this movie over & over since '93....The name Nutting has been associated since at least '96....I'm sick of it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to wash the word Nutting out of my mouth and eat dinner.

Hope you have a great time rooting in the likes of Brandon Moss, Craig Hansen, Andy LaRoche and Jeff Karstens.....ooopss!

Karstens has already been dumped!

Adios....

Trades are only giveaways if you ignore the return.  You refer to the Nady/Marte trade as a giveaway, when it was a clear win for the Pirates.  Nady barely played in '09 and Marte put up a 9.45 ERA.  And Bay would be leaving in free agency right now.  Not sure why you would prefer we kept them.

As for McLouth, McCutchen is already better and I think Milledge will match McLouth's production in the future.

I don't know what argument Mark is winning but he's certainly not winning the one with me. My original post called for Nutting to open his books -- nothing more. ... If he has as much money coming in as appears to be the case, he should have been more proactive in keeping players, and that goes all the way back to Aramis Ramirez. --- Bob Smizik

===================

No, of course I'm not winning any arguments with you. You are not drinking the Kool-Aid that opens your mind to logic and reason.

Yummy Kool-Aid. I love gaining the understanding that comes through logical arguments. Yum.

So, #1 Bob, you are just asking him to "open his books" out of curiosity? No other agenda? And yet, you admit that you would not understand them, which I guess is obvious since you don't understand the fact that the Pirates might not be able to safely afford much more than a $55M payroll while at the same time receiving $80M from MLB.

You are in the newspaper business. Would it shock you if you found out the PG makes 66% of its revenue from advertising - BEFORE THEY SELL A SINGLE NEWSPAPER!

Oh, Lord! Shocking! Someone open the books! How could the newspaper business possibly be in trouble when you find out that kind of information?

Your obvious shock that the Pirates might receive close to $80M before selling a ticket is just as ridiculous.

#2 - I have presented many examples of teams that seem to be making considerably more money than the Pirates. I have asked you to provide a single example of a team in a similar market to the Pirates that purposely made less money than the Pirates in 2009.

You have not done so, so if you don't in the future I will assume you can not find one or don't consider that important enough to try. And if you don't consider that relevant to this discussion, I'm going to assume you haven't had your Kool-Aid which improves the power of logical thought.

#3 - You say that Nutting bears responsibility for the Aramis Ramirez salary dump. Your implication is that Ramirez's salary was dumped because Nutting wanted to make more profit.

The Pirates say that the team was losing money and the dump was necessitated by the possibility of serious financial difficulties looming.

I say, and back it up with actual facts, that the payroll of the Pirates when they went into PNC Park was 90% of league NL average, and their attendance was exactly NL league average with a market size of 2.3M. The closest parallel in 2009 would be Colorodo, which had an exactly NL league average attendance and a payroll 85% of NL average with a market size of 2.5M.

So you can see clearly that the Pirates of 2001 spent more money proportionally to the Rockies of this year considering what their probable revenue streams were.

Because of incompetence, the 2001 Pirate team was terrible and attendance plunged through the floor the next year and the year after, dropping by 10K/game, meaning the Pirates lost the revenue that 1.5 million people would provide.

A conservative estimate of how much revenue would be lost in that scenario would be $30M. Yet, the Pirates' payroll of 2003 was nearly the same as in 2001.

A parallel to 2009 might be the Cleveland Indians and the Detroit Tigers, both of whom lost significant attendance in 2009, but still lost significantly LESS than the Pirates did between 2001 and 2003. Both of these franchises have been mandated by their owners to significantly reduce payroll for 2010 and are in the midst of salary dumps.

Now, given that factual information, can you seriously believe there is no reason to believe the Pirates were losing money in 2003, and that Nutting just wanted to stuff his pockets with profits - and do it by devaluing his team and probable future revenue by selling off his most valuable player?

In your world where you reject the mind sharpening effects of Kool-Aid, economic realities do not apply to rich people. Apparently the rich do not mind losing tens of millions of dollars and can afford to shovel money endlessly down a hole and still skip to the office every day whistling a merry tune.

(Mark:  You're ridiculous.  Did you even bother to read what I wrote or did you just launch one of your endless rants?

Where did I mention a word about the Pirates increasing payroll, as you suggest I did?  Don't use your tired, old argument on me and don't throw 1,000 words at something to impress everyone.

I did not suggest Bob Nutting was making excessive profit.  I merely asked the man to open his books because I think it would be a wise public relations move. Nothing more.

I once laughed when people suggested you were a Nutting relative or Pirates employee. I'm no longer so sure that isn't the case.  -- Bob Smizik

Forbes estimates the Pirates' profit last year at $15M.

They estimate the Marlins' profit at $43M.

They estimate the Nationals' profit at $42M.

They estimate the Rays' profit at $29M.

They estimate the Twins' profit at $29M.

They estimate the Rockies' profit at $29M.

They estimate the Padres' profit at $22M.

-------

What is it about these numbers that you don't understand? The Pirates are making less profit than these other teams which are either in similar size markets or have similar records!

Similar Records?? Last time I checked The Marlins have won 2 World Championships (despite their selling off their teams after), the Twins and Rockies were in the playoffs this year, TB was in the WS last year, and the Padres were in the playoffs 3 years ago. With the short term exception of the Nationals, none of these teams can even approach the futility of the Pirates over the past 17 years or three years for that matter.

If the Nuttings had any sensitivity towards the fans of the Pirates they would open their books or at least give the public a general overview. Personally I do not care if they make 100 million a year as I have lost my interest in baseball many years ago. As long as you have Bud Selig in charge, you might as well just have the Yankees and Red Sox play each other 162 times a year. Even if the Pirates had the best ownership in the history of baseball they would be hard pressed to remain consistently competitive. As we all know their current ownership is not exactly "the best". I have simply redirected my sports energy to the Penguins and Steelers. I will say however that I do get my daily and weekly comedy fix when I read the quotes from the Pirate front office.

AZ_PGH_Fan -

I'm not debating whether the Pirates have done a worse job of running a franchise over the last 17 years. I think it's pretty clear that they have done the worst job of any franchise over that time period.

All I'm saying is that they have not failed because they pocketed too much money. All evidence points to the fact they have spent proportional to other teams in similar circumstances, and pretty much all of those other teams have done much better than the Pirates.

This should tell us that the problem has not been the amount of money spent. The problem has been incompetence.

Personally, I believe there are people running the show now that have a good grasp on how the Pirates can be successful. We will know whether that's true or not in 2 to 3 years.

Bob,

I apologize if I misread you. See, normally when people call for the disclosure of private financial records, that means they believe there is something stinky going on - financial impropriety - that sort of thing.

You see, when you wrote this...

"Are the long-held suspicions that principal owner Bob Nutting is pocketing a handsome profit while foisting a third-rate team on the Pittsburgh fans true? Based on Stark’s reporting, there is reason to be at least suspicious."

I thought you equated "handsome profit" with "excessive profit". Apparently, you believe that $15M (the Forbes estimate if true) might be "handsome", but not "excessive".

Am I understanding you now?

So, even though you weren't trying to imply Nutting was overly and excessively profiting from the Pirates and purposely "foisting a third rate product" on Pirates fans in order to do so, you just thought it would be a wise PR move for him.

You were just trying to help him out, right?

Just like you thought Miguel Angel Sano probably wasn't worth the money, but that the Pirates should sign him anyway as a PR move.

Yeah - my arguments are ridiculous. Logic filled Kool-Aid. Yum.

PS - No, I am not a Nutting employee, friend or family member. Just a Pirates fan who wants to see the Pirates do well. If Mark Cuban bought the team, I would be very happy with that, as he probably would be an even better owner, and has publicly stated that he would run the team to break even. However, I believe that expecting an owner to spend at a much higher rate than normal is neither realistic nor ethical as a fan.

Despite:

1. being blasted in the media,

2. fan protests,

3. national redicule due to breaking the record for the longest losing streak in the history of professional sports,

4.  an opportunity for a casino license in 7 Springs

Nutting wants to keep the team and pass it down to his children.  If anyone doesn't think he is making a bundle they are extremely naive or have an alterior motive.  He needs the money to bail out his money losing businesses in the newspapers and 7 Springs.  

Think Nutting is an astute business man?  He bought 7 Springs at the height of the real estate bubble in 2006.  

www.post-gazette.com/.../699589-85.stm

Here's a quote from the article: "Seven Springs is one of two applicants seeking one of two available "resort" casino licenses, meaning it has no competition for a casino and would lose its bid only if something was wrong with its application."  That must have cost a lot in the purchase price.  Here's what he said at the time:

Robert Nutting, chief executive officer of West Virginia-based Ogden Newspapers and a member of the Pirates' four-man voting board, said there won't be any legal issues preventing the family from owning both a baseball team and a casino

Here's what actually happened:  He was not permitted by baseball, or declined before he was told by baseball, to have a gamling license so he had to terminate the license application so he could keep the Pirates!!  So in addition to buying the property at the pricing height, he paid for a gambling license he couldn't use.  Being the son has its benefits - any other executive who made mistakes of this magnitude would be promptly fired.

He may be a nice man (don't know) but he is a disaster in business.  If his baseball team wasn't protected by the baseball monopoly, he'd be out of business easily by now.  So we got all this to look forward to for decades if left up to Nutting.

Would somebody please save us, please?

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