Iwamura: Did he say `playoffs?'

Great analysis, Bob, of a meaningless trade.

Aki is a nice complement on a team with talent, but on the Pirates, he will not be a significant contributor. Tampa Bay was not going to pick up his option, but the Pirates step in and do so with only one year left on a contract --- and with a 31 year old player coming off a knee injury. I have a hard time believing that the Pirates are going to give him an extension.

This smacks of desperation ... not a well thought out plan, or should I say blueprint?

(If it smacks of desperation, so be it. This is a team that should be desperate. I have no problem with them improving the team, which they did with this trade -- whether he's here for one year of three. We can't criticize them for not spending then criticize them when they do spend.  -- Bob Smizik)

yawn...... wake me when the blueprint or plan or whatever they are calling it these days is complete....

I hope this is the first move of a productive offseason. I really like that Iwamura knows how to take a pitch, because too many of the Buccos have a poor batting eye.

Bob,

What are the odds that this guy gets traded at the deadline this year?  He sounds like he is a player that can be valuable for a contender.  Plus his post season numbers in '08 are pretty impressive.  

In my opinion, this is just a move to try to bolster season ticket sales.  I hear that numbers are extremely poor right now.

More than anything, this trade speaks to the dearth of talent in the Pirates system. The Pirates upgraded their team with a guy Tampa didn't need because they've got a dude who hit 27 home runs to step in. Where's that Zobrist-type of second baseman in the Pirates system? Or even, an Iwamura-type second baseman in the Pirates system? Not at triple-A or double-A, that's for sure.

This front office inherited an expansion franchise talent-wise. No one wants to hear it or believe it, but it's going to take many more years to turn it around, even if they eventually fire Huntington due to fan outrage.

It was a good move. Iwamura is a certified major league player.  He is an upgrade over what the Pirates currently have available.  I doubt the Pirates ever contemplated Delwyn Young being their second baseman in 2010.  Young was simply a stop gap measure after Sanchez left.

Chavez certainly was not lights out, and will not  be missed.  In fact the Pirates could make a few more deals with their excess pitching.

Can't criticize the guy too much for being hopeful that the Bucs will make the playoffs in 2010.

I like him.  Unlike Freddy, Iwa appears to be a better batter/baserunner.  Smarter on the paths.

Check out his Japan stats at this link.  Did he really hit over 40 home runs in 2004?  That's shocking.  Are the fences 300 ft or something?  

www.japaneseballplayers.com/.../player.php

'Lost in Translation' .... that is my take on the playoffs comment until proven differently.

The Pirates now are paying a bit less for probably a more productive 2nd baseman that they had a year ago.  Now how does Alderson compare to Chavez ... to early to tell!

My hope is that Iwa starts out  healthy and productive and the Pirtaes are able to trade him for one or two really good prosepcts.

Collegefan -

you already have plans to trade him?

so, it boils down to this....

would you rather pay 1 million more to keep Sanchez, a better hitter and more proven commodity at second base, while also keeping Chavez, a guy who has proven he can get major league hitters out...

OR

would you prefer to save 1 million dollars by picking up a somewhat comparable, aklthough definitely lesser, hitter and second baseman who is coming off serious knee surgery, and also have the unproven prospect of an Alderson mulling around in your minor leagues for who knows how long?

Tampa has learned how to win, so they dump Iwamura.  San Fran knows how to win, so they sign Sanchez.  the Bucs? well...they are...well, the Buccos.  as in, "Save a bucco; See ya next year!"

miss you already, Freddy.

Well, I would rather him say that than the truth, that Sushi sucks in Pittsburgh. Ok ok, maybe I am wrong. I have no idea about Sushi in the Burgh. Its pretty good here in the Palo Alto San Francisco area.

Due to previous trades and mistakes. This is the best we could have done IMHO as a angry at the pirates front office arm chair quarterback. Its a one year trade to bolster the mess we have. Maybe his one word of english, playoffs, playoffs chanted all year, will help us get to .500 in 2010. Oops thats like saying Playoffs I guess LOL. For now the trade is a good as we can do to improve the holes we have. Not to mention we just lost a great infield coach. We needed an experienced 2b no one we have to coach...

And now....For the "veteran" segment of the movie!

But wait!....This was supposed to be a "different" plan.

Things had changed from the Bonifay & Littlefield years.

We now have a real plan!

As stated above, we already see that some wonder in amazement as to what we can get for Iwamura in a trade.

Desperation?.....Yes.

The need for desperation....Yes.

But trading for a 31 year old 2nd baseman with his ACL hanging out is worse than desperation.

It's more flat out incompetence by the worse front office in all of sports.

I guess Pokey Reese wasn't available.

I think the key word we've overlooked in Iwamura' statement is "Hopefully."  As in, "Hopefully we can go to the playoffs...".

As in, hopefully Jennifer Anniston will start returning my phone calls!  Haha

"We can't criticize them for not spending then criticize them when they do spend.  -- Bob Smizik)"

I agree Bob.  But by that same token, many complain about the expectations being so low in this organization that to make fun of him for talking about the playoffs seems hypocritical to me.

Ive never been a Sanchez fan - injury prone - punch and judy hitter....I realize that the dimensions in japanese stadiums are shorter than US stadiums but in his last 3 yrs in Japan (04-05-06) Iwmaura hit 44 HR, 30HR, and 32 HR - all while batting over .300...Hes an upgrade over Sanchez...Plus he has above average speed......

Ive been hugely critical of this front office but I give them credit here - they knew that Young wasnt the answer at 2B - they didnt wait to get another team's scraps.....They were aggressive......Even if he doesnt work out, Hungtindon was pro-active....

sarcastic -

come on.... Freddy was a batting champion....whether you like the trade or not, give him his due.

PLAYOFFS? Don't talk to me about playoffs! Are you kiddin' me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win 60 games.

This one will be a "mild' debate for a while.  Mild since there are ZERO expectations for the Pirates next year.

For the Net $1M difference, I would have preferred they stay with Sanchez (but with Wilson leaving, perhaps Freddy wanted no parts of staying)..

The real story is the FO will continue to spend to a $40M level then turn off the spicket at the magical ceiling will have been hit.  

No easy answer here, as Bob has pointed out in the past, Free Agents would have to be offered a significant premium over the market to come play here.

The team will go in to Spring Training next year with absolutely no hope of competing for a Wild Card, let alone a .500 record.

I don't understand how and why Season Ticket Holders continue to pay for full seasons when then team is out of contention by the end of May??

Lot's of cheap tickets available June+

Like all of the Pirates' trades, I certainly hope that it works out, although I have zero expectations.  More likely, Chavez could be Mariano Rivera in a few years when Kai will be long gone.  I remember an article from earlier this year when a columnist wrote that all of the recent Pirates' GM's have started by scrapping vets for young players with upside for a 4-5 year plan.  But fans don't want to wait that long, so when the pressure starts to come to win, the same GM's start to abandon the plan and bring in vets in a desperate attempt to win and keep their jobs.  I don't know that FC could survive a 110 loss season, so he needs to fill gaps, even if it means trading a promising player to do it.  The alternative, pay a market rate for a good free agent, is too ridiculous to fathom.  Could this be happening already?

Punch and Judy hitter sanchez was? Hummm, my memory is that of a team leader, usually a .300 hitter, national league batting champion and one of the best double play combos in the entire major leagues for years. Guess I must have forgotten something.

The local to me SF Giants, which is a very well run baseball team gobbled him up for what we did not want to pay him. I remember all those saying good riddance, hurt, old, love the new young guys coming to replace him and wilson, how they were so excited for the future. Then when the future presented itself after the all star game. They were gone from the blogs or changing their tune!

Me, I woulda never every traded Sanchez. That said, we did and I guess given our money constraints on spending Sushi is the best we can hope for and I hope he has a fabulous 2010 season with the Pirates. We need the help! Welcome about the Nuthouse Ship from Hell...LOL!!

Agree that you can't rip them for not spending money and then in turn rip them when they do, with a major caveat. If they spend money foolishly, aka, Matt Morris, and yea, I know that was Littlefield, but Nutmeg approved it. It was clear Tampa was not going to pick up the option of Iwamura, he has a hefty contract and a bum knee. Could the Pirates not have made a play for him on the free agent market and still kept Chavez? Sorry, I just don't see a great upside to giving away a potential prospect for a one year stop gap on a team that has too many gaps to stop. Typical Pirate move of the last 15 years IMHO.

(On the open market, if he has any other offers do you think he comes to Pittsburgh?  I repeat:  If you're gonna rip 'em for being cheap, and everybody does, it's not fair to rip 'em when the spend. Then needed a second baseman for next year and he was the best available. A good  move  -- Bob Smizik)

Can't believe I'm being seduced again by a Pirates discussion...

But SarcasticSword's Freddy slur was the last straw. And trying to interpolate Iwamura's batting stats in Japan into the discussion was just ridiculous.

Viewed in isolation from everything else, this trade probably helps the Pirates, for reasons I'll mention in a moment. But it's impossible to have amnesia about everything that happened last year, and that which forced the Pirates to make this deal. To cut to the quick, Neal Huntington decimated a superb infield last year, on a team whose best pitchers are "pitch to contact" pitchers. I was not convinced that Delwyn Young was necessarily a lost cause. Both the Dodgers and the Pirates bounced him around back and forth between the infield and outfield. Settled into one position and given the off-season to work at it, he might have emerged in 2010. And the man who might well have mentored his coming out as a second baseman -the same man who authored Andy LaRoche's fine emergence- Perry Hill, was lost due to NH's wanton destruction of the team. Also, the Pirates plan to convert LaRoche to a second baseman probably also was sunk once Hill said, "Screw this." Not that I was firmly convinced puting Andy at 3rd would have been the best of moves. Andy has a great arm and, as we learned, great hands and instinctive reactions; ideal for playing 3rd base. But at second, he has to fly around and cover far more ground, including the bag at 2nd and sometimes 1st. Clubfoot notwithstanding, Freddy fielded the position and covered the ground well. But could a larger Andy LaRoche do the same?

Anyway, now here in November '09, what do we do? We need a second baseman. With Iwamura, we are now are at least solid up the middle once again. Cedeno and Iwamura are no Jack and Freddy. But we absolutely cannot afford to have holes up the middle of our defense with guys like Zach and Paul on the mound trying to craft wins. IF the Pirates can ink Iwamura to a longer deal, the pain of losing Jesse Chavez lessens a bit more.

But... something Bob here wrote during the late summer now resonates loudly in my mind. It was something to the effect that "every new GM starts out with a 'plan.'"  But then adhering to this "plan" gives way to -well- what I believe we are beginning to see now, with the Chavez-for-Iwamura deal. The unraveling is beginning, folks. The quickie fixes are now happening. To plug this hole, we gave up a prized commodity -a good, young, inexpensive arm. And one that was ours for the next four years, no less.

(Le't be fair. Sanchez and Wilson were offered market value contracts and refused them. Wilson was headed for free agency and Sanchez was a year away.  He did the right thing by trading them.

As far as Perry Hill, I don't think a GM needs to check to see if he's hurting the feelings of first base coach when he makes a trade. In some circles, Hill would be known as a quitter. -- Bob Smizik)

If true that Iwamura could have been had on the free agent market, then this deal -and the desperation factor- would truly begin to stink. But I am not privy to the off-season needs at second base, for other clubs. Would other clubs seriously have been bidding against us? If so,  trading for Iwamura now -and trying to ink him to a few more years, is the best course of action at this present time.

Wow JL, I guess great minds do think alike.

"If you're gonna rip 'em for being cheap, and everybody does, it's not fair to rip 'em when they spend."

the problem is, Bob, that they didn't really spend here.... really, what happened here is they saved money on Sanchez.  in the end, and unless Alderson blooms, once again, the Pirates have ended up with less talent for less money.  

and i agree with virtually everything JL wrote.  after the fact, sure, I will take Iwamura.  what choice do we have now?

chancellor, I disagree with your view on Sanchez.  I believe he is way too injury prone to spend the money that is being spent on him.  He was very talented and a real good guy, buy honestly believe that Iwamura has a much bigger upside right now.

well, the numbers don't lie, collegesportsfan, and by numbers i mean salaires.  Snachez will make more over the next 2 years than Iwamura.

Iwamura's knee is not 100%, and he says he "hopes" it gets there during next season.  now we have almost 5 million reasons to hope so as well.

if i were a neutral 3rd party and team GM looking to pick up a new 2nd baseman, looking at the track records and the medical records of both Sanchez and Iwamura, i'd definitely pay a bit more for the guy who will be making more -- the one our team let get away.

JL -

you my friend are a genious!

This just in:

the level of talent they had with regulars Nate McLouth, Nyjer Morgan, Adam LaRoche, Jack Wilson and Sanchez --wasn't that great either.

More likely, Chavez could be Mariano Rivera in a few years when Kai will be long gone  =  now that is funny

Nycrob, BFD, Chancellor: THANKS!

Thundercrack: Say "Doug Mientkiewicz" ten times, and you'll absolved for your sins.

Bob,

I know that your response to my above comments is consistent with your take on Freddy and Jack's situation, this past summer. But we don't see eye to eye there, because I happen to believe NH was intentionally low-balling them -and his blink-or-you'll-miss-it retraction of the offers more than confirms that in my mind. Of course, once NH was "all-in" on blowing everything up in sight, there was no stopping him. And it's hard to evaluate any one or two particular moves of that guy, without looking at the whole picture. Since I just don't have the economy of words of a trained journalist that you have, I won't go down that path, today. It still breaks my heart to think about the Pirates, anyway. I continue to tell myself that if I don't think about them too much, it won't hurt too much. I'll let the above be my relapse for a while.

(JL: Huntington did not intentionally low-ball Wilson and Sanchez and I don't know how you can say that.  He gave them what was from the Pirates a fair offer.  You act like Sanchez got $20 million from the Giants. He got $12 million over two years, two more million than the Pirates offered.  As for your suggestion that Huntington pressured them into a quick-decision situation, so what if he did? It's negotiations!  But I don't think he did.  How much time do you need? Sanchez knew the money and he certainly new the situation. He had all the information he needed to make an informed decison. He was not pressured. He had an agent to guide him.

Huntington is open for criticism on many issues but not on Wilson and Sanchez.  People act like they were not offered fair contracts. They were and they refused them. With Wilson set to be a free agent and with Sanchez, at the time, set to make $8.1 million, Huntington did what he had to do. -- Bob Smizik)

Chancellor,  what is the logic for paying more for damaged goods? ... especially when the higher priced one has more of an inury history, and is a few years older?

Bob- I like your take on the Perry Hill matter and after thinking about it, the light bulb went off and i'd say i'd have to agree with you.  He did quit on this team and the Pirates organization all together.

I also agree that this is a good trade.  Who else is actually available out there.  This front office is trying to put something together.  I will still continue to support them, whether i like some of their trades or not. (nate mclouth)

I have a question for you....how many more players, with the current roster would the Pirates need to add?  one solid power hitting corner outfielder?  Personally, I think they need one more bat and of course some added relief.  

Just my thoughts, thanks for the blog.

(Thank you.  The hero worship of Perry Hill is nonsense. If a player did what he did -- walked out on the team -- he be accused of treason.  Hill is a hero to some. Ridiculous.

The Pirates are many players away, not one bat and some bullpen help from contending for a championship.  They are deficient in almost every area -- offense, starting pitching, bullpen.  --  Bob Smizik)

stlrfan,   the more relevant questions is how much are you willing to pay and would they come anyway?  the bigger question is even if it would improve the team in the short term, what implication does it have in the long term which is what everything should be based o now.

Bob, it's really tempting... but I'm not yet ready to come out and play.

Sanchez will be 32 in December.  Iwamura 31 in February.  Iwamura's knee may never be the same again.  he's been in the major leagues 2 years, effectively.  and it's funny, all we do is lose in this town for 17 straight years, yet somehow we still find the cojones to dismiss our lone recent batting champ as a mediocre player we won't miss.  maybe we deserve Nutting after all.

it was clear to many that the Pirates never expected WIlson and Sanchez to accept their offers.  they were made to appease the fans only, a ploy that obviously fooled some people in this town.  however, many other learned sports journalists saw through it, then and now, and said so.  and it's simply unfair to ignore the players' own statements made at the time that the offers were forced upon them, "take em or leave em".  i have engaged in my share of contract negotiations in my lifetime, and that is certainly not negotiation.  for all of these reasons, the Sanchez and Wilson trades are absolutely moves that will always remain open to great amounts of justified criticism, expecially now, given the news of the how much Sanchez got from a good team, while the Bucs only ended up signing another winning team's injured cast-off for less.

(It was clear to you HOW that the Pirates never expected Sanchez and Wilson to accept the contracts? What was said by the Pirates that would give you that impression? I don't pretend to have any inside information on this subject but I think the offers were made in good faith. The fact the deal Sanchez accepted with San Francisco is so close to the Pirates' offer indicates to me that it was fair. I think there's a good chance that Wilson won't do as well as the Pirates offer, which will be testimony to its fairness.

I don't recall the players own statements but I will assume they were what you said.  What exactly were the parameters of  ``take it or leave it.'' Did they have 10 minutes, two hours, four days?  And how long does a player need to make such a decision when they are fully aware of the  situation and the money and receiving the expert advice from the lawyer-agents? -- Bob Smizik)

"Is the Pirates offer of contract extensions to shortstop Jack Wilson and second baseman Freddy Sanchez a legitimate attempt to keep two key players or a thinly veiled public relations ploy that has no real teeth?

Hard to say without the details of the contacts being available but when it comes to finances, it’s a wise course of action to be skeptical -- highly skeptical -- of the intentions of the Pirates."

community.post-gazette.com/.../pirates-play-hard-ball-with-infielders.aspx

it was clear to YOU, Bob, at the time, that there was valid reason to question the Pirates' motives.  and even though, in that blog, you tried to have it both ways, i.e., questioning the Pirates motives while at the same time portraying the whole ordeal as sound business strategy, others were not so quick to drink the kool aid on Samnchez and Wilson, and still are not.

surely, given the above paragraphs, you will not now begrudge others from still doubting the Pirates motives on this matter.

(You wrote the following:

``it was clear to many that the Pirates never expected WIlson and Sanchez to accept their offers.  they were made to appease the fans only, a ploy that obviously fooled some people in this town.''

If your only support of that is some speculation I wrote at the time of the offers, well, that is not the proof I asked for.  You have twisted my speculation into statements of fact I did not make.

It was NOT clear to many that the Pirates didn't expect the offers to be accepted. --  Bob Smizik)

uuuhhhhh - - I am very confused by all of these comments . . . . when they trade away major league caliber players with 1-2 years left on their contract for young talent with lots of control - there is an uproar.

when we do the exact opposite to improve the team - there is an uproar.

Come on people . . lets be objective.

Sanchez - solid MLB player with the potential for a great BA and lots of doubles and good D -but in all honest evaluations on the decline defensively and probably offensively.  Also injury prone.  I am a big Sanchez fan, but really - - - please he is on his way down not up.

Chavez - in third organization, 26 yr. old rookie middle reliever with 4+ ERA and a crappy July/August.  He almost did not make the team out of spring training and anyone lamenting the loss of him that could honestly say they considered him a key piece (or knew who he was) on last Feb 14 - please let me know what scouting report you were looking at.  

And what do they get in return?

Iwa - solid MLB by all accounts and maybe not Sanchez in his prime, but should be a decent D, .280 hitter in the 2 hole minimum with potential upside of Freddy's doubles  (in his prime) with more power and better baserunning.  The chance that he wlll have a better offensive and defensive season than Freddy this next year is at least 40-60.  So at worst - slight downgrade.

Alderson - top 3 pitching prospect - - come on - you need to accumulate these type of players and hope 1 out of 3 hit.  This is exactly the type of trade the Buccos need to make.

If Iwa is reasonablly close to Sanchez - wouldn't you trade Chavez for Alderson staight up (especially last spring training) and be considered a genious.

BTW - last post's last question - - rhetorical

Wow!!!   a certified big league second baseman.  Usually this time of the year the Pirates make their big splurge in free agency by signing a backup utility infielder.  It must be Christmas or just a dream.  SOMEONE WAKE ME UP!!!!!

Lest we forget, $2 million dollars is still a lot of money. The Giants offered Freddy $1 million more per year than the Pirates.

Freddy made the correct call.

Also, the Pirates can hardly be said to have 'negotiated' with Freddy.

Negotiate - Confer with another with a view to compromise or agreement.

Freddy, Jack and their agents indicated that no 'negotiations' took place.

The Pirates haven't spent money. They got rid of a player they wanted to pay $5 million, and they got another at slightly less price. At short, they got rid of one player, and got another at significantly less price.

(Negotiations takes two people. The Pirates made an offer. Did Sanchez or Wilson counteroffer? Regardless, it was a fair offer that almost immediately was rejected. What no one wants to admit is that Wilson and Sanchez wanted out of here.-- Bob Smizik

I don't get all this discussion over the short-term acquisition of a mediocre player made to fill a gaping void. If they had anyone in the system that could even imitate a big league infielder they wouldn't have done it, and they will surely say sayonara to him before the season ends if his knee holds out that long.

My first reaction to this situation is amazement actually.  The Pirates spent most of the Littlefield era signing or trading for second basemen, backup second basemen, players who could be converted INTO second basemen and light hitting utility style backup middle infielders who profiled as second basemen, yet, when one is needed, none in the organi - I -zation is good enough to play on a 99 loss baseball team.   Where have you gone Bobby Hill?

As to Sanchez, from strictly  a money angle, he gambled and lost huge.  $10 million in Pittsburgh is a lot more than $12 million in the Bay Area of California.  Take your $125,000 brick 3 bedroom Pittsburgh home and put in San Fransisco and you'll get $850,000 for it in a suspect Bay Area neighborhood.  Compare the cost of living and taxes in California to taxes in Washington or Butler County and that extra $2 million a year FS is pulling down is fly paper.  And I've been to Frisco twice.  68 degrees and foggy in August ain't what I call summer.

"The Pirates made an offer. Did Sanchez or Wilson counteroffer? - Bob Smizik"

the Pirates overtly precluded any substantial counter offers from the start by telling Jack and Freddy there would be little or no give on the overall salary figures.

what you don't want to admit is that the Pirates wanted Jack and Frddy out of here.

(What a strange way to get rid of people:  By offering them market-value contracts worth $8 million and $10 million. Why don't you admit that Sanchez and Wilson wanted out of here, which is why they gave fair offers barely a consideration before rejecting them. --- Bob Smizik

also, i must add, have we lost our senses?  Sanchez gambled and lost?  the players wanted out?

we live in a great sports town with teams who negotiate contracts with their good players every year.  so we are privy, first hand, to the ins and outs of sports contract negotiations, in terms of how the back and forth goes on behind the scenes, over the course of weeks and sometimes months, whenever the team has a sincere desire to nail down a player.  and we know when the opposite is true.

we know that when, for example, the Steelers toss out a flat salary figure at Jeff Reed right before the season starts, one that isn't really too impressive, they likely have no intention of signing him, unless he buckeles under and takes the offer.  that is, they force him to test the waters or take what seems a bit of a lowball price precisely because they have already made a determination that, although they wouldn't mind keeping him, he is expendable in their overall salary structure and team plans.  while with other players, they hagle and negotiate.  agents becomne involved in real discussions.  matters drag on, until, finally, either a deal is reached or one side pulls out and that's that

this isn't so complicated.  why then would some of you people try to force the round peg of the WIlson and Sanchez offers into the square hole of what constitutes a normal sports contract negotiation?  that is simply not reality as we all know it.

the Pirates made the offers public from the start. because they had no intention of doing real, actual, normal behind the scenes negotiations with Freddy and Jack.  they were smack-dab in the middle of an entire team overhaul, and Freddy and Jack were the final pieces of the plan to go.  they knew both were extremely popular with the fans, and they knew both were close friends, so they simply had to make offers.  but handle it just so, \

and others might even eventually be writing about how Samchez blew it, how he was a crippled old player of medicore talent, how Jack couldn't hit at all, etc. etc.  yes, I must give the Pirates this -- they handled this one perfectly, from a PR standpoint.  

but becuase of those final 2 moves, the losing is almost guanteed to continue.  you can't gut a team of its character, its human core, and its strong defense up the middle, not with so many young, untested counter-parts struggling just to understand what it means to put on a major league uniform, and hope to patch things up by a couple of cast-offs from the Cubs and Rays.  

i hope they get lucky, and these nasty, cheapskate blunders can somehow miraculously be patched up and overcome.  because i most definitely want the Pirates to win, baby, win.  but the way people have defended the trades of Jack and Freddy, frankly, sickens me to my stomach and disugusts me not only about the nature of sports, but also about the nature of people.  how quickly they forget and sell one another out.  how little they care about the intangibles, like camaraderie and "in the clutch".

losing is clearly epidemic.

(Where did you ever get the idea that you are ``privy, first hand, to the ins and outs of sports contract negotiations,'' You are given what the media hand-feeds you and the media is hand-fed what it gets from the competing sides. Much of the negotiating process is unknown to the media and the public. You have, for example, no idea of the specifics of the Steelers final offer to Reed.

Let's wait and see what kind of offer Wilson received before we toss the Pirates under the bus on this matter. Sanchez received and accepted an offer close to what the Pirates proposed and I'm guessing Wilson also will. That hardly makes it sound like the Pirates were trying to get rid of them. -- Bob Smizik)

Don't understand or agree with the logic that Perry Hill "quit"on the team. Did he not finish out his contract this year with the Pirates? Did he not continue to work with D. Young after the trade of Wilson/Sanchez in an attempt to make DY a quality 2nd baseman? He "chose" not to accept the Pirates offer of a contract extension, just as Sanchez "chose" not to accept the Pirates "fair market" offer. Using your logic Bob, didn't Sanchez "quit" the team as well. The Pirates "chose" not to renew Rich Donnelly's contract didn't they, as is their right. Isn't Hill entitled to that same "right" not to continue with the Pirate organization?

(I never disputed Hill's right to walk out on his contract. But it also had another year left on it.  While it was his right, as it is everyone's not to fulfill a contract, I wrote that if a player had done it that player would have been considered treasonous by some of the fans. 

Your high regard for Hill is over the top,  You seem to think he should be lauded for working with Delwyn Young. That was HIS JOB. He was being paid to do that job.

Sanchez did not quit on the Pirates. He was traded. Had he not been traded, he would have continued to play and, unlike Hill, fulfill his contract obligation. -- Bob Smizik)

JuniataKid:  If the front office inherited an expansion team, why were teams lining up to trade for the Pirates players the last few years?

"Where did you ever get the idea that you are 'privy, first hand, to the ins and outs of sports contract negotiations'" - Bob Smizik

as for "me", i do not rely on the media for all my information, Bob.  

but the statement was made in a much more general sense about "we".  and "we" are all privy in the very manner i described.  there are overt methods used by all parties -- patterns.  perhaps not so much the "ins and outs"...maybe that was a bit of an overstatement there.  but certainly, we have all been given enough information over the years to have a pretty good basis from which to assess how a team normal behaves when it actually wants to sign a player.

and ok, we can wait before the bus rolls over the Bucs.  but 2 million is a lot of money at 32, Bob.  you can't just dimiss the excess Sanchez got from San Fran as a pittance.  clearly, it was not a pittance to the Cheapskates...er...i mean Pirates.  and, fine, we can wait to judge....but don't you find the mounting number of people who have complained about the "negotiation" techniques of this Pirates' management staff a bit alarming?  Sanchez, Wilson, Sano and his agent, Hill.

the cheese stands alone.  and 17 years of doing do makes for one stinky hunk of cheese.  here's hoping Huntington gets some ham and bread and makes an actual sandwich.

(I did not dismiss the $2 million difference between the Pirates' offer and the Giants' as a pittance. I said the Pirates offer was fair and competitive.  It was.

You have to remind me on this one:  Was it Sanchez or Wilson or one of their agents who complained about the Pirates negotiating tactics -- which, by the way, we are unaware of.  And if it was one of those, do you think their opinion could be a bit biased?  -- Bob Smizik)

you are unaware of, Bob.  the fact is that Sanchez and his agent rejected the Pirates offer and made a counteroffer for $6.5 million in 2010, $6.5 million in 2011 and $7 million in 2012.  Huntington rejected that counter-offer.  after tossing out the offers last minute to appease the media, he was in such a rush to meet the trading deadline that he didn't come back with, say, 6 over 2, for example.  which probably would have worked, Bob.

PiratesFanSince1960:  I'm sure the sushi in SF and PA is superior to what is on offer in Pittsburgh, but the SF scene has never been the same since the Kojimas packed up and sold Kabuto.  

As for Retire #21 - If you believe that Pittsburgh is a better overall place to live than SF, then you are quite probably a Pittsburgh resident who has never lived in SF.  God Bless Ya and best of luck to you!

and, so i'm not talking out of school, here's something from one of YOUR sources, Bob -- a real nice article from Jennifer Langosch of MLB.com which will fill you in on even more of the negotiation stuff that you were not privy to before.  at the very least, surely you must now admit that Freddy and Jack did not want out of Pittsburgh:

"Almost exactly 24 hours before he was traded, Sanchez asked his agents, Paul Cobbe and Matt Sosnick, to counter the initial two-year, $10 million offer that the Pirates had made to him during the All-Star break. They did, presenting the Pirates with a three-year, $20 million counteroffer, despite advising Sanchez not to sell himself that low.

"He just said that he loved playing in Pittsburgh and he knew that there was something in the works, and he had us present an offer that we felt was under market value to Pittsburgh because he said he wanted to take one shot at letting the fans in Pittsburgh know that he wanted to stay there," said Sosnick, who was at AT&T Park with Sanchez on Wednesday. "Freddy asked us to discount the offer, and we did. It was solely his choice to make a counteroffer. He loves Pittsburgh. He loves the fans there.

"Our advice was that he wait it out. He said, 'No, I don't want to get traded and not take a shot at at least staying in Pittsburgh.'"

On Wednesday morning, the Pirates formally rejected Sanchez's proposal.

Similarly, Wilson's agent, Page Odle, put a call into the Pirates on Tuesday to try to reopen contract-extension talks between the shortstop and the club. But by the time that call came in, the Pirates had already agreed in principal to deal Wilson to Seattle.

"Ironically enough, after we agreed to the trade, we got a phone call to reopen the door," Huntington said. "But we'd already agreed to the trade and ethically, we felt like we had to move forward. We'd already agreed in principal and felt ethically we needed to move forward." "

pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

(I'm surprise, chancellor, that you buy in to the ``We love Pittsburgh,'' player-talk. Barry Bonds said he wanted to stay. Bobby Bonilla said he wanted to stay. Everyone says they want to stay. The reason: Fans buy it, even if it's not true.  What they really want is the most money.

As near as I can tell from this story you copied from MLB.com, the Pirates offered Sanchez $10 million at the All-Star break. He came back with a $20 million counterproposal. Isn't that nice. Talk about bargaining in bad faith. You think that is a proposal by someone who wants to stay in Pittsburgh? It's not. That's the proposal of someone who wants out of Pittsburgh.  It sounds to me like he purposely inflated the offer so the Pirates would have no choice but to reject it and trade him. And it if was fair market value, why did he get only $12 million from the Giants?

The story also goes a long way to clearing up the perception the Pirates rushed Sanchez into a decision. The story states the offer to Sanchez was made at the All-Star game, which is in mid-July. He had plenty of time to consider it. To say he was rushed, as some have, clearly is wrong.

We could go round and round on this and I will not respond again.  My final point is the Pirates offered Sanchez and Wilson fair contracts.  Feel free to have the final word. -- Bob Smizik

Thanks for the info Chancellor.  Huntington seems to very incompetent.

Where exactly do I mention any regard for Hill either positive or negative. Quite frankly, I think all the hype over his coaching skills were over the top and I certainly did not view him as any "franchise savior".  My point is, I feel he had every right not to continue his employment with the Pirates just as the Pirates had every right not to continue the employment of the long-time, extremely loyal Rich Donnelly. I continue to believe Hill and Sanchez' situations are nearly identical. Yes, Sanchez was traded, "after" he spurned the Pirates attempts to sign him to a long-term deal. Hill decided he did not want a long-term deal also and to my knowledge, left without the benefit of knowing if he would or could have employment with another MLB team.

(Sorry if I misjudged your appreciation of Perry Hill. But when you lauded him for continuing to do nothing more that what was his job, I seem to sense a bit too much admiration for the man.

Rich Donnelly rejoined the Pirates in 2008 after not having been with the club since 1996. He worked for three or four other clubs in the interim-- Bob Smizik)

"losing is clearly epidemic"

EXACTLY & the buccos have lost 100 games, both with & without Sanchez and/or Wilson.  Whether Wilson & Sanchez wanted out or the Pirates didn't want Freddy & Jack back, the song remains the same...THAT is reality!

chancellorpink:  I see that now Smizik has fallen into your trap, he's shut his.  Smizik seems like a decent fellow, but he's badly bipolar when it comes to the Pirates.  I get a bad case of whiplash every time I read another of his Pirates-related columns.  Time to fish or cut bait, Bob.  You're too good a columnist generally and too intelligent to continue carrying Nutting's water partially on a full-time basis.

(Sorry if nuanced thinking confuses you. It's possible to follow baseball and not blame everything on Nutting. I am not carrying Nutting's water. I am saying the Pirates made a fair offer to Sanchez and Wilson. -- Bob Smizik)

@ Tetsu and Chan-Pink:

My statement of gambled and lost was strictly based on the financial relalities of his current situation.  $10 million in Pittsburgh goes much further than $12 million in the Bay Area.  The Giants are the better team, so he is ahead from a baseball perspective, but financially, he is not.  Whether or not the Pirates or Sanchez negotiated in good faith was not the focus of my statement.  I personally liked the way Sanchez played but the reality of it was that he was not going to stay in Pittsburgh, be it by his hand or Nutting's.

Tetsu, I haven't lived in the Burgh since 1986.  Been to the Bay Area for two extended stays.  I'm not talking about living in Sausolito where it's 95 in the summer, I'm talking about Frisco where it is 68 and foggy in the summer.  I have many friends who are still in California and the one thing they all have in common is that they've fled the Bay Area because it was not a good place to raise a family.

"Feel free to have the final word. -- Bob Smizik"

ok, and thanks.  

you say the Pirates made fair offers; i say they made offers they knew would be rejected in order to appease the fanbase, with their real intent all along being to pick up a new shortstop and second baseman for less, which they have now accomplished.

with respect to analyzing which side of the Pirates/Sanchez-Wilson "negotiations" was acting in good faith, versus, perhaps, merely trying to placate the media and fanbase via false appearances of good faith negotiating, i would suggest you need only look to "motive".

if Sanchez and Wilson were so intent on voluntarily leaving Pittsburgh, as you cotinue to insist, what possible motive could they have had for making a counter-offer, as Sanchez did, or of at least attempting to engage in negotiations before the trading deadline, as Wilson did?  to look good to the fans here?  but why would they have cared what the fans thought of them if they were voluntarily getting out of town?  they wouldn't have needed or wanted anything further from the fans of Pittsburgh.  instead, they would have done what, until just a few moments ago, you mistakenly believed that they did -- simply said "no thanks" and waited for the impending trades.

whereas, Huntington and the Bucs clearly had 2 clear motives for giving the appearance of making a good faith effort to keep these two players, but while also rejecting any and all counter-offers or attempts to actually negotiate real future contracts.  namely, 1) Huntington still has to live and work here and deal with the fans' reactions; and 2) of course, the team still hopes to take as much of the fans' money as possible while spending as little as possible on our actual baseball team.

who cares?  they're gone & with or without them the buccos most likely lose 95-105 games, as has been the rotten pattern...so much time & effort spent bickering about a pointless issue.

Chancellor,

I'm sorry but Freddy Sanchez is NOT a better hitter than Aki Iwamura. He was - but only for the ONE season that he won the batting title. All other years he has been far inferior.

For a #2 hitter, OBP is THE MOST IMPORTANT STAT.

Why? Because that measures the ability of a batter to do the most important thing in a lineup, which is to NOT MAKE AN OUT!

The only year that Freddy Sanchez's OBP came close to Aki's usual OBP was Freddy's batting title year, when it was .378.

Aki's OBP in 3 years in MLB: .359 - .349 - .355

Freddy's OBP last 3 years:    .343 - .298 - .326

Since league average OBP is .330, Freddy Sanchez has actually been a BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE hitter for the past 2 years, and Aki has been an above league average hitter.

Blitzburgh & MarkInDallas --

i care.  i liked those 2 players and felt they were good for the team in many ways, tangible and intangible.  

because of their experience, positive enerrgy (caused by their personal bond) and consistent play in the field, i think Sanchez and Wilson mattered significantly to any possible "restart" of this team.

they were good players, but, even moreso, they had the intangibles that matter, especially to such a young team.  intangibles that can't be measured by OBP, etc., but are certainly reflected in the team's miserable finish after the trades were completed.

chancellorpink,

"restart of the team"?

NEWSFLASH...<$25M avg. payrolls do not compete with >$175M payrolls...restart???  

MarkinDallas, I have no dog in this fight, but it is silly to contend that OBP  is the be all and end all of baseball stats. Home runs and slugging are at least as important; a team of 9 Dave KIngmans would score more runs than a team of Tony Gwynns, believe it or not.

i have no dog in this fight either, Kevin Morris.  he already won.

kevin - I'm not saying OBP is the be all end all stat. I said "for a #2 hitter".

Runs are created by getting on base, moving runners over, and driving them in. OBP measures how well hitters get on base and move them over. SLG measures how well they drive them in. A #2 hitter is a table setter for SLG guys in the 3,4,5 spots.

wOBA is actually the be all end all stat. That weights every thing a batter did in all plate appearances and issues a score based on how much those outcomes are worth if the batter was in a league average lineup.

Aki's wOBA last 3 years: .338 - .323 - .338

Freddy wOBA last 3 yrs: .339 - .292 - .322

So, you can see if you figure in slugging, Freddy gets closer, but still would be measured as below Aki.

Freddy and Aki are practically identical from a WAR standpoint, because Freddy is a little better at defense, whereas Aki is a little better at offense.

I really like Freddy Sanchez, don't get me wrong. But everything I've read about Aki says he brings those same kind of intangibles to the table that Sanchez does.

And he brings one thing Sanchez doesn't - he will take walks and get on base more frequently, which will make a real difference as the Pirates try to score more than 3 runs a game.

"Aki is a little better at offense" -- i'm sorry, MarkInDallas, this is just not at ALL true.

let's look at some basic, career numbers, which also happen to represent proven major league ability to hit and drive in runs in clutch situations and in real-time games in American baseball.....

to wit...

- Sanchez has 38 home runs to Iwamura's 14

- 300 rbi to only 104 for Iwamura

- his career batting average is .299, while Iwamura's is .281

- Sanchez also has 178 doubles; Iwamura only 67

- and his slugging percentage is .417 to Iwamura''s .393.

more good stuff...

- Sanchez drove in 85 runs in '06 and 81 in '07, whereas Iwamura's pinnacle was 48, which it took him 627 at bats to achieve.

- and yes, Sanchez won the batting title hitting .344 in '06, which was far from a fluke, as he made it to the plate 582 times that season!!

- and you want to talk about on base percentage?  well, i don't want walks when McCutchen is at 2nd after a steal in the 1st inning.  i want a hit.  and any other time too, i'll take the guy with 438 more hits, 111 more doubles, 24 more home runs and 196 more rbi -- Sanchez.

and defensively...

- Sanchez's fielding percentage at 2nd is .990 to Iwamura's .987

- and that's with Sanchez having 632 more chances!

- Sanchez has also turned 211 more double plays than Iwamura.

and all this talk of Sanchez being injury prone is ludicrous...

- from 2005-2008, the guy had 453, 582, 602 and 569 ABs

- he had some swelling in his knee last season and missed some days, but still managed to bat .293, coming to the plate 457 times!

- guess how many times the "younger" less inury-prone Iwamura's knee lert him bat last year?  231.  and now after Iwamura's serious knee surgery, he says he's still not 100%.

i'm sorry, but in every true sense, Sanchez is easily the better player, especially because of his experience and proven ability, day in and day out, over multiple seasons, whereas Iwamura's games played barely total over 2 seasons, even though he's only a year younger than Sanchez.

Bob Smizik wrote "Sorry if nuanced thinking confuses you. It's possible to follow baseball and not blame everything on Nutting. I am not carrying Nutting's water."  Bob, I never asserted that "everything" should be blamed on Nutting; after all, he's been in the boardroom for a while, but not 17 years.  However, it is possible to follow baseball on a daily basis, while still coming to generalized conclusions based on the day-to-day evidence one is exposed to.  Sherlock Holmes famously took little pieces of evidence, interpreted them through a different prism than Inspector Lestrade, and eventually pieced the small conclusions gleaned from them into a larger picture, thus completing the inductive process.  For some reason, Bob, when it comes to the Pirates, you seem to see each tree in the forest, but fail to perceive the forest as a whole, itself.  Yes, there are more forces at play than just Nutting, but HE IS the one directing traffic here, and I, for one, am seeing the same traffic patterns, again and again.  Maybe it's time you took a step back, Bob, and looked at the larger picture, assuming of course, that you are able to locate it.....

(The team has been losing for 17 years. Bob Nutting has been CEO for less than three and has been involved with the team for well less than half of this losing. The Pirates' greatest problem is not ownership but an incredible string, going back more than 17 years, of inept personnel decision, both in the draft and on the major-league level. The Pirates problem are far more nuanced than blaming everything on ownership. If you choose to believe that a defense of Bob Nutting, so be it.  -- Bob Smizik

Retire #21:  Thank you for the further explication.  Housing prices in the SF Bay Area are much higher than in the Greater Pittsburgh area, but beyond that, San Francisco is an incredibly inexpensive place to live.  Why?  $50 for a monthly bus pass - believe me, you wouldn't want to drive much in SF, due to in-town traffic and the lack of parking in commercial districts.  Fresh food, and for that matter, all food, is cheap in price and high in quality, whether we're taking about fresh fish ($3-6 per pound, except for high-end stuff), produce (10-20 limes or lemons for a dollar, bell pepper for 49 cents a pound, bananas for 29 cents a pound, etc.), or even specialty/ethnic foods ranging from pate to tofu to queso).  Pork tenderloin for $3 a pound and less, sirloin steak for as little as $1.99 a pound, etc.  Thanks to the temperate climate, one almost never needs to turn on an air conditioner or a heater, so goodbye to high gas/electric bills.  I could go on and on an on, but I won't bore you any further.  

As for the weather, yes 68 in the summer is typical for SF, but the same conditions are always present in Sausalito.  You've mistaken the latter for Sacramento, where I reside, 100 miles inland.  Obviously, you don't know as much about the Bay Area as you claim.  Sacramento and Sausalito are as far apart atmospherically, demographically and culturally and they are far apart climatologically.  

tetsujin070561 --

for the record, i think it's clear that Bob Smizik does not defend Nutting at all.  i think he merely chooses to believe that Nutting's finanical influence over his management employees is not directly reflected in their personnel moves.  and i understand why he would take this position.  he's a baseball fan and wants to believe in the integrity of those charged with running the team.

i too would still like to give this new management team a chance.  in fact, i put on the rose colored glasses and was on board with this new team for quite some time, hoping beyond hope that, for a change, better personnel decisions would be made, ones which, especially, did not so clearly make finances the absolute primary factor.

i was able to stay on board with this current management team up until their mishandling of the Sanchez and Wilson "negotiations", which, to me, indicated not only 2 poor personnel blunders, but were also bad decisions clearly made primarily to save future profit margins.  at least to me, by his mishandling of the Sanchez and Wilson matters, Huntington greatly undermined his overall credibility going forward.

The only way this team is gonna have a chance to compete on a regular basis, is if all of you (who are so wrapped up in the which of these two players, neither of which is at the elite level) stop attending games at PNC & stop tuning in on TV...that is the ONLY way to affect Nuttings profits, which in turn is the only scenario under which he would most likely be forced to sell the team, until then the status will remain quo!

(It is a commonly held belief that if the fans squeeze Nutting, he will have no choice but to open his check book.

Has anyone considered that if the fans stop coming and revenues diminish, Nutting's response will be to spend less?  He's not in a no-lose situation but close to it The lower his revenues, the more revenue sharing he receives. -- Bob Smizik

"Has anyone considered that if the fans stop coming and revenues diminish, Nutting's response will be to spend less?"

what?  & lose 115 games as opposed to 105???

Tetsu, thank you for making me hungry.  While I don't claim to work for Mapquest, I am familiar enough with the geography to know that Sacramento is well outside of San Fransisco.  Two of my good friends from high school  in my Pittsburgh days have families and live in the Sacramento area.  It has been some time now, but I distinctly remember being quite chilly strolling among the seals who beach themselves at the Wharf, and a few hours later enjoying a lunch in the warmth of Sausalito.  The difference in temperature was obvious.  Maybe I caught Sausalito on a good week, but the weather there was much nicer than the temps in the city.

Retire #21.  Fair enough, Retire.  But I have to insist that if it were 68 or so in SF, there is no way it was 95 in Sausalito, just across the Bay.  Ask any weatherman.....

Bob Smizik wrote "The team has been losing for 17 years. Bob Nutting has been CEO for less than three and has been involved with the team for well less than half of this losing. The Pirates' greatest problem is not ownership but an incredible string, going back more than 17 years, of inept personnel decision, both in the draft and on the major-league level. The Pirates problem are far more nuanced than blaming everything on ownership. If you choose to believe that a defense of Bob Nutting, so be it."  

Yes, Bob, no one is disputing that there has been a statistically improbable run of poor decisions by various Pirates officials over the last 17 years.  But once again, I must repeat that no where, and in no manner, did I ever assert that "everything" is the fault of the current ownership.  What exactly is so hard to understand about that?  For a gent who revels in the "nuanced" world he inhabits, you seem incapable of simply reading the words I've written - and doesn't that make my point?  You're lost in nuance and unable to see the bigger picture...or you're just reacting in a reflexively defensive pattern that you're stuck in.  

(You don't blame Nutting?  Read your next post. You place it all on him. Incredible. -- Bob Smizik

Chancellorpink:  Thanks for the explication.  I understand where Smizik is coming from, and I too wanted to believe that this edition of Pirates ownership would set a successful course for the club going forward.  And I too threw in the towel with the Sanchez/Wilson shenanigans, especially following the Morgan trade.  Nutting hasn't lost the plot; he's simply making it up as he goes along, marking time until he sells the club on when the revenue picture sours.  It's a smart plot, but I have seen this film before.  That being said, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Nutting succeeds in achieving his ultimate goal.

(You don't get it. Nutting isn't making the trades. Huntington is.

After making a reasoned statement about your stance earlier, you blow it by, like too many, blame Nutting for everything.  ---- Bob Smizik)

Bob Smizik wrote "(You don't get it. Nutting isn't making the trades. Huntington is.  After making a reasoned statement about your stance earlier, you blow it by, like too many, blame Nutting for everything."  

Gee, Bob, I did not say that Nutting is making the trades, but I clearly implied that he has provided Huntington with a framework to work within.  Those are two tangibly different positions.  Only a few people at the very apex of the Pirates management pyramid know the truth as to how much leeway Huntington really has in making these decisions.  My hypothesis is like yours in that it is a hypothesis, with an insufficient amount of established material facts to render a real judgment as to what the real dynamic is.  Once again, Bob, you've blown it by reading too much into my statements and then attacking my positions based on your assumed interpretation.  For someone who prattles on and on about nuance, you seem to have a really hard time recognizing it, even when it is right in front of you.  

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