Pirates losing not a managerial thing

I tend to find people that point the finger at the manager and/or want to question moves are just doing what regular baseball fans do.  

I also think there are legitimate times to hold the manager accountable regardless of talent, like leaving Matt Capps last Saturday night in Philly.

I believe that much of the fan base understands who the manager is doesn't matter.  Or the lineup.  Or However they (we) have been beaten down so much from the losing and the reality that "better players" is a never ending tunnel.  

I'm fully aware it's "all about the players", but when that becomes the only answer left that Pirate fans can say, they usually are ones that stop following the team in my opinion.

I love the way Jim Leyland smokes cigarettes.  He just removes the end panels on a carton then saws up and down it like a harmonica.

I miss him.

Though I'm sure I gave the most "scathing" review of John Russell in yesterday's blog, he's definitely not the main factor in the continuous losses of the Pirates.

That starts right at the very top with Bob Nutting, and works it's way down the chain of command.

My point is that John Russell is the perfect example of the current day Pirate front office.

When it was time for them to pick a manager, they picked John Russell.

One of "oh so many" poor decisions that again start right at the top, and filter down.

People like to jump on JR because when he talks, he turns into captain obvious.  Statements like, "If you don't score runs, you can't win"  are what's gettiing the nut cases all stired up.  Thanks Captain Obvious.

I'm upset that the AL won the All-Star game, because now the Pirates will not have home field advantage in this years World Series:-).

If a manager cannot make a huge difference, how do explain Tracy's success in Colorado? How do you explain Dan Bylsma's success?

I believe changing a manager can make a difference. First, it shakes things up. For whatever reason, players seem to respond a change, be it a change in QB, goalie, coach. Perhaps it causes them to refocus. Additionally, sometimes the players need a change in the type of manager. I think this is what happened with Dan Bylsma. Therrien was successful when the Pens were young and inexperienced. They needed a coach that was a structured disciplinarian. Later, Therrien hadn't changed, but the players did. With their experience, they no longer needed structure-- rather, they needed to be set free to do what they could do. That's what Bylsma let them do, and it changed everything. This, I believe, is how you explain that the Rockies are suddenly contenders with Tracy, and why the Pens were able to go from a non-playoff team to the Cup.

No one knows if the Pirates would have won any more games by now with a different coach. But one has to remark how eerily similar the Pirates' performance is with their coach's demeanor-- subdued.

GTL

Don't compare the Pens to the Pirates....That is like comparing ice cream to horse manure.

People blame the Pirates manager each and evey year (for 17 seasons now) for 2 reasons.

a. it's obvious and easy

 b.  It makes the kool-aid drinkers believe there is hope.  "If we just got a better manager, we'd turn this thing around".  When in reality they need to get is many more good ball players by spending some money.... not 200 million..... 70-80 million would allow them to compete for a play off spot, or at least an above 500 season.

GTL,

The change to Bylsma was a breath of fresh air, but it could be argued that any "player friendly" coach could have made a significant impact. Also, with hockey, there's more strategy involved in how the team plays (trap, "up tempo", left wing lock, etc). In baseball, all the strategy you really have is setting a lineup and using your bullpen and pinch hitters. Finally, and most importantly, the Penguins and Rockies were/are talented teams to begin with that were underachieving a the time of the coaching change. Do you really believe Bylsma has this impact if there is no Crosby, Malkin, or Fleury on this hockey team?

The Pirates are not underachieving, in fact if anything, they're overachieving considering they lost their cleanup hitter for 3 months, traded away their #3 hitter 1 month ago, and had to demote their #2 starter to the minors. It could be said that, without Russell, this team may very well be worse off than it is.

I'd say the players are 98% responsible for what happens out there, and the coaches get 2%. Over the course of a baseball season, that comes out to about 3 games you can blame squarely on a manager. Maybe the difference in making or not making the playoffs for a good team, but rather insignificant in helping (or hurting) a team headed for over 90 losses.

No doubt the Pirates would be losers if you resurrected John McGraw to coach them. So you can't blame Russell for the losing. But fans are right to criticize some of his lineup cards and especially his handling of Moss. There's nothing Russell can do about the present, but he can have an impact on the future. And sitting Moss too often is affecting that future negatively, IMO.

Where are Casey Stengel and Billy Martin?

Classic illustrations among dozens that not only do mediocre or maniacal managers not win games played on the field, they don't lose them either.  Players do both.  

Firing/hiring managers of failing, flailing teams is like axing the bus driver because you took the wrong bus and got to church late.

Well said Bob.

Agree completely that it is all about the players on the roster, which goes to those who acquired or developed them. You can't say we'd be a winning team with a different manager. Nevertheless, a manager can have an impact on games and he needs to be called on it when he exerts a negative influence. Leaving Matt Capps in that game on Saturday long after it was painfully obvious that he had nothing to offer except more flat batting-practice "fast" balls was ridiculous. I was screaming "get him out of there" at the TV. The game was still tied and very much in the balance after Howard's HR, but JR effectively conceded the game by leaving Capps in. Terrible job of game management.

While I agree that this current debacle IS NOT the entire fault of John Russell.

Fire him? I hate doing such, but you have to wonder when you see the pens turn a round, Colorado Rockies turn a round this season so far. Although the trades killed any chance of that discussion IMO.

I do believe a Manager and his coaching staff can change a team to be successful. What is successful? I would suggest  achieving .500 ball.

Even at the professional level, giving ratios for discussion sake. IMO a manager and his coaching staff can be responsible for 25% of a player that is givng and succeeding at 110%.

I have coached, been coached, and even today, am daily a life coach in my career. I can, I do, inspire people. I have been inspired accomplish more and win more because of a coach.

IS A COACH the same as a Manager? I will defer to others if there is a difference. High School to College in baseball I know they are called Head Coach. Is that different from todays professional league manager?

Bottomline to me, JR and his staff could be better as to game decisions, and even handling of the front office as to their process of decisions Maybe job safety is that big of a concern to them.

Me, I think had JR and his staff said DON"t TRADE him or I will walk, would have shook this organization to its core, rallied the fan base to the street with protests supporting the manager :---) Alas another discussion on my opinions as to our trades. Sorry little side tracked, coffee kicking in!

IMO a coach or a manager CAN teach and inspire a young player which the pirates are, to be better. Just as having a strong leader in the club house as a player can do the same. I think we have had the horses over the past 5 seasons to blend together, and should have generated a team to play .500 ball.

Unfortunetly there is no one correct answer for this team. We have holes to fill from the Owner down to the birds that come to eat the scraps after a game. Its just such a mess there is no one correct answer.

Guess my question is: WHAT WOULD BE YOUR FIRST 5 moves for this team to improve NEXT YEAR 2010? Nobody is wrong. Maybe we can forward to NutHouse and his staff to help them!! :-----)

Go City of Champions and the Pirates

David

(The Pens were in the Stanley Cup final last year. The Rockies were in the World Series in 2007. The Pirates have nothing approaching that recent level of success. Change can work on good teams. The Pirates have tried change four times and it has not worked. -- Bob Smizik

the hiring on jr didnt upset me. picking up the contract for another year did. jr was a cheap fill in till the team got better. suppose to be a young guy to help teach a young team. he hasn't done any of that. should we be surprised by the pbc hiring crappy managers? no. just like when dl hired lm instead of hiring jim leylend. when leylend wanted to come back. he delt with bonds and bonilla he could deal with this team.

saying leylend losing 4 straight seasons with those teams and he cant do any better with this. jim leylend might not get us to the world series but he would make us more respectible.

piratesfansince 1960...they are called coaches cause they teach, mentor, instruct kids in the game. a mlb manager is suppose to manage the game...put the right people in at the right times and spots, know the best way to achieve success. knowadays he is a coach...with guys playing younger and not devouting themselves to the game. you still gotta teach at the majore league level. thats a big reason why jr isn't right for the pbc

I waffle a little with this and am no big Russell fan either.

There's no doubt the BLAME of losing shouldn't fall on him, first of all. Its just its hard to see a guy who actually says he's not disappointed with this season being that bull who leads us over the top!

I know it was just a few comments...but it seemed liked they said alot at the same time. He's a guy who loves to philosophize...how else to try to rationalize that this lineup is actually better than last year's? If we had all three outfielders from last year, Nady was healthy....AND Ohlendorf, Karstens and Morton were still here than the Bucs would probably be toe-toe with Cardinals. I know that's ludicrous and you have to give up something to get something....but he sounds like a fool in trying to proclaim, in effect, that those deals were good for the Pirates. They may be, we don't know....he just shouldn't be commenting about them and simply work with who he has.

I was a big griper about the lineup changs as well and I waffle there too - to an extent. I know there's not a Yankee liineup there.....but how are you ever going to find out if some of these guys can play if you don't play them consistently. I guess I'm speaking of Moss and Young; I know Moss has been terrible statistically but he has shown some signs...it would be nice to find out once and for all, best you can, before you bring Milledge up. I also know Young plays RF as well and you can't sit Jones....I guess there's no easy answers. Perhaps the most baffling thing is the moves seemingly sometimes come without merit....there's been several times when a guy is "hot" or is just starting to pick it up....and then he sits.

I've maintained I'm a big fan of what the FO is ATTEMPTING to do....they just don't need their manager trying to be the company spokesman. It comes off as very disingenuous and corny. Just manage the players, try to help them get better, and save the analysis for "Baseball Tonight".

sum1savus.

Leave it to the younger bucks to have the best sign on! Took me about an hour to get it. Ok truthfully, I read it outloud twice for it to sink in. SOMEONESAVEUS!!! Love it.

daquido_bazinni I hate to say I agree 100% with you as to most everything you write. God I hope we are wrong. But right now I feel this is another 2+ years of sub .500 ball and thats just guessing cause I see no light in this tunnel of horrible pirates baseball. Even if Jones, McClutch, Duke become major stars, we will lose em to free agency, or trade em for potential prospects. Know what potential is right? AIN'T DONE IT YET!!

Love the bucs, but hate past 16+ years.

David

I don't think Russell is the reason the team stinks, but I don't think the fact that the team stinks means Russell is above criticism. It didn't make the Pirates a contender when they demoted Snell, but it was a move that needed to be done. If Russell isn't doing a good job putting this team in a position to win, strategically, motivationally, or any other-ally, he should be held accountable just as if this team was a contender. If replacing him would make the team better he should be replaced.

By the way, I don't get to see enough games to have a valid opinion on whether or not he is doing a good job.

I agree the Pirates losing ways has little to do with the manager.  So why do we even have a manager.  If we are going to cut costs why dont we start there.  Instead of bobblehead night, why dont the Pirates draw a winning ticket from someone in the stands the game before the series starts.  Who wouldnt want an all expense trip to the West Coast for ten days and have the best seat in the house.  It would make me attend more games with the hope of managing the pirates.

   The same goes for the base coaches, why pay them anything when again you can raffle off those positions for nothing.  This is the big leagues, you would think these players would know how to run the basepaths.  I could tell them to stop or go when they are rounding third. I can learn to grab my nuts, pinch my nose, and get the hell out of the way from a foul ball

   The pitching coach is the only coach I will leave alone.  I think our coach has done an admirable job.  He has the ability to teach how to pitch correctly and keep the score low.  You sure  do need that with the offense we got!!! hahahah

    Finally the GM position.  What fantasy league player wouldnt want the opportunity to make trades and sign players to contracts.  Its a dream job so this raffle would only go to someone who buys season tickets

   I am sure everyone is doing the best job they can but most of the time you just cannot polish crap

'Burgher in California   that was a funny post!!!   I want LLOYD MCCLENDON Back!!!  I love watching people flip the hell out. He would be dead by now if he was still coaching the Pirates

John Russell brings nothing to this team but a lineup card, how dare you write a columm about his comments and then say he is adequate, I dont know if you watch every game like I do. The Bucs have blown many of game due to his neglience, I mean I remember times when NYJER OR AMAC was on first and we were down one run and JR wouldnt have the guts to steal either one of those FERRARI'S , a coach isnt always the product of his talent, I compare RUSSELL to my 2 favorite BASEBALL COACHES of all time, JIMMY LEYLAND AND CHUCK TANNER, those guys had a special gift to have the pulse of the team and the UNCANNY ABILITY to light a fire when needed, JR NOT HIS FAULT, is who he is, he has no fire and that is another dimension he fails at....Lastly what happened SATURDAY NIGHT in the city of brotherly love was TRAGIC, JR sat there , almost afraid to pull CAPPS when HELEN KELLER could see he didnt have anything, Then he had the audacity to warm someone up , FOR WHAT !!!!!!!!!!!!! IF YOU NEED TO WARM SOMEONE UP THEN YOU HAVE YOUR ANSWER, GO TO THE MOUND AND GET HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, JR Is not a leader of men, you and I both know it but you just CONTRADICT YOURSELF so much you dont know what you really feel, I can read and you like myself know this guy is not right for the team ,...To read his comments make me think not only can he not coach but he is STUPID, How in the hell do you say the lineup in June was better than the one with NADY, BAY ETC, Just dumb,..Then he said he isnt dissapointed about the first half, well my goodness Bob , what would make him dissapointed, If the team didnt catch the bus and show up on gameday....I have no confidence in him and I know I am not alone...You know the truth but you had nothing else to write about.....BOB, I Love your work but take a stance and quit back peddaling on topics...

I thought I was finished but to see the team a season high 12 games back and he again say he is not DISSAPOINTED is so LUDACRIS that he should loose his job on that alone....He doesnt say much but when he does he sounds like a FOOL ...

Bob,  while I agree with your premise that even the best manager or managers have not or will not make the Pirates a winning team because of its lack of talent, I do disagree that a manager such as Jim Tracy, who now is experiencing some success with the Rockies, could not have helped the Pirates be a better team than their final record indicated. I express this as one not claiming to be a baseball expert, but one who taught and coached kids for over 30 years and who has been a Pirate fan for since 1955. I also realize that much of what I believe is after the fact and cannot be substantiated fully. I have observed a number of things that well could have helped the Pirates be a more successful team than the records indicate.

To begin, how often during Tracy's tenure were the Pirates well in control of a game because of a solid outing by a starting pitcher only to have him removed from the game because of Tracy's insistence on the 100 pitch limit, only to squander the lead by ineffective bullpen pitching. How often I felt he overmanaged by trying to fix - so to speak - something that wasn't broken. Likewise, how often when the Pirates did manage to win, Tracy took credit for the outcome rather than the players who actually achieved it. How often did he attempt to remake the Pirates into the teams he had in L.A.

with players who did not fit that type of team to begin with? How often did he misevaluate the strength of players he already had, Freddie Sanchez and Nate McClouth to name just several? In his eyes Freddie was not worthy of being a starting third baseman or Nate McClouth a center fielder. Likewise, and probably the most annoying and/or frustrating aspect of his Pirates management skills was his constant sitting in the dugout looking at the floor as if there were no game being played at the moment - not one iota of excitement or motivation on his part. This makes me wonder how much of the current Rockies success can be possibly attributed to his astute management. Only time will tell that.

As a person and professional example, I applaud him and wish him well, but I can't help but conclude that the Pirates could have, would have, should have been a team more competitive than the records indicate. Would they have been a championship team, I doubt it, but they well could have achieved a more positive record.

Just where JR will rank during these years of Pittsburgh down-years remains to be seen, but it appears that the Bucs could use more motivation than has been exhibited thus far. While John is very patient and supportive of his players, I can't help but think there is a time to surprise them with an explosive approach and help motivate them to expectations that go beyond their present comfort zones. Yes, managers can only do so much, with the bulk of the success or failure determined by the players. But some of a manager's most successful achievements occur with teams less talented, but who achieve more than the players or the fans expect. It is with these beliefs that I will always continue to support the Pirates through years of thin and thinner, for I can't help but feel the empathy for the players who are striving to shake these years of frustration and help restore pride to the people of Pittsburgh and all their fans everywhere. This year, especially, seems to be a state of flux, with neither players nor fans exactly sure which direction this team is headed. Through it all, though, let's keep on keeping on so that once again we can truly raise the Jolly Roger. Bob, keep up with your thoughtful comments and observations. Even if one might disagree with them at times, they do make the reader stop and think. Thanks again.

You're right Bob.  Russell is a so-so manager with the Pirates due to lack of talent on the team.    I agree with his constant tinkering of the lineup,  necessitated by the trades and lack of player consistency.  The guy has to find out of some of these people can really play? (Moss, Andy LaRoche, etc.)

Hey, Russell might be a great manager on the Yankees?  Remember, Joe Torre wasn't all that great until he landed with the Yankees and now the Dodgers, two teams loaded with talent.  Made him look good!

Ditto Terry Francona, banned in Philly but loved in Beantown.

Oh yes Russell is part of the problem. He's the manager! He's the one that should demand accountability of his players. Instead, he's an excuse-maker that faciliates their mistakes. Isn't it time for the Charmin-soft Pittsburgh media to put some heat on these guys? I mean, this has been going on for 17 years now, right?

It's definitely true, the Pirates losing is not a managerial thing right now. They've lost for years and everybody knows they need more talent.  But I still am not sold on Russell.

I think you have to be careful not to stick with this manager too long just for the sake of being different or trying to show stability .

Because they haven't won in 17 years and had to go through some other managers, does that mean John Russell is the right guy and can get the job done?

Everybody needs to be evaluated and accountable. This current general management has to project in all aspects. That includes the players they've acquired who they hope can provide a better nucleus of talent and that includes the manager being a good leader and getting the most out of the team when it comes time to place some legitimate expectations on them.

Talent alone won't get it done. Not in this situation. It's going to take more than talent.

Even if the Pirates have better talent than they've had, almost every other team will be equal to or better. They have to play the game well and the manager has to make a difference in understanding the strategies and "pushing the right buttons" at times. And they need to build some serious mental toughness and resiliency to bounce back after some rough stretches.

I don't see Russell making even the slightest bit of difference. He's just not that way. Not enough experience at the big league level and severely lacking in leadership.

If Huntington is satisfied with what he sees and sticks with him, I hope I'm wrong. From what I've seen so far, I think they should see if they can find better.

I couldn't agree with you more Bob.

I'm not a John Russell fan but after 16 going on 17 losing seasons you figure out that it's not the Managers fault as much as it's the players he's given to work with.

It's lousy ownership, general managing and scouting that's destroyed a once proud franchise.

The Pirates are nothing more than a Triple A team for the rest of the Major Leagues.

Saturday, 1 a.m. Q: The money vs. winning debate is not resolvable, but it can be put on a more informed