Could Pirates lose 110 in 2010?

The only winning the Nutting's care about is in their bank account.  

Their plan is simple, keep a low payroll, tease the few remaining fans they have left that they want to win by signing guys like Bay, McClouth, and Sanchez to new contracts but when the big money years approach, trade them before they make it.  

Just stop going to games people.  If you don't change your spending habits.  Neither will the Nutting's.  

Bob, you are right on with your comment concerning communication with the fan base. Pirates management owes it to the long suffering fans of this once-proud franchise to explain in very clear terms just what their plan is and what the timetable is for that plan. Give us some indication as to when we can expect to see a contender on the field. If you can't or won't do that, Pirates management, then don't be surprised when even fewer of us show up for your games.

Just remember where your team plays, Mr. Nutting. This is Pittsburgh, a city that clamors for, and frankly expects, championhip contending play from its sports teams. We get it from our Steelers and our Penguins - when will we get it from your team???

I "been" done with this franchise in regard to going to games and buying there merchandise.

This is just another salary dump and nothing surprises me anymore, I don't care what ownership does.

They need to come clean - this obviously is going to take some time.

Nutting assured us in December that he expected the Pirates to be competitive this season.

FC and NH assured us in December that McLouth was part of the core.

It does them no good to BS us any more.

And Mr Nutting, get yourself a good PR man, and listen to him.

You're an owner in the same town as the two most popular owners, perhaps, in all of sports.

You come across as a cold, distant, carpetbagging, bottom-line man.

That may or may not be true, but either way, your image is terrible.

And your results, at least in the W-L column, aren't much better.

I'm sure your results in the profit column are good, though.

If this is the path "THEY" have chosen, then please there is absolutely no need to sign the "PROVERBIAL VETERAN" to help the youngsters. Its nothing but a waste of money & roster spot, I.E. HINSKE, DEREK BELL, BURNITZ, JASON MICHAELS,  etc, etc,etc,,etc..next season's starting 9 should be younger then 25 one way or another...i'm in agreement with everyone else's comments above, here's hoping my kids will see a winner,

Bob Nutting may or may not be a good guy and he may or may not have good intentions for the Pirates.  But he has to be noticing that increasingly, more and more of we fans are aroused and aiming our fast balls at his head!

Time to come clean Mr. Nutting!  This team is NOT going to be competitive as you said last year.   You are NOT committed to spending money on real players, else you'd be keeping Wilson and Sanchez, the only two major leaguers on the current team, for a few more years.

And you have NOT come clean on how much of that New York Yankee money you receive every year for finishing last.  Instead you spend it on yourself, reducing debt, rather then spending it on players.

You've temporarily lost the real Pirate baseball fans.  Until you come clean on just how much you want to dismantle this team for yet another "rebuilding project", we won't be back.

Meanwhile, the fans you have left, the bobble-head doll and fireworks fans, are starting to mumble among themselves as well!

Even they want to see winning baseball instead of discounted Sugardale hotdogs.

Mr. Smizik, if this is the best you have to offer, maybe you should take a day or two off from posting.

It's OK.

The Pirates have been stuck in this perpetual cycle of having a few decent ball players but never enough to be competitive.

At this point, I think it would be good to just blow everything up and try to get a good, solid core of talent together on the same ballclub within a 2-3 year window. The status quo hasn't been working with on the field results. If this team has to lose 100+ for a couple years to achieve the end result of a truly competitive team, then so be it.

To those calling it a salary dump: What's really the difference between losing 85-90 games or 100-110 games? It's still losing. The Oaklands and Minnesotas of baseball have been buying low and selling high for years. Sanchez probably won't have any higher value in the future than right now. The fact is, by the time the Pirates are a competitive team, Sanchez, Wilson, LaRoche or Doumit won't be here anyway. Probably not Maholm or Duke either for that matter.

Think about how much more talent the farm system has now compared to when the current front office took over. Building from the ground up is the only way a team like the Pirates are ever going to have a chance.

No...There can never be enough of these kind of articles concerning the Pirates, and I give Bob all the credit in the world for exposing them for what they are....corporate pirates.

At this point in time, one can only hope that the Pirates lose 100 this year, and 110 next year....In hopes of driving these money hawks out of Pittsburgh.

In the next couple of weeks they will have destroyed any hope of this team competing till at least 2013....and frankly, I don't believe they will contend then.

When Sid Bream slid into home to win the NL Championship in '92, I knew the Pirates were doomed.

However, I really never dreamed that Pirate fans would be dragged through the mud in quite the strange & unusual way they have been for the past 17 years.

Nutting, Huntington & Coonelly show no remorse for their actions.

If they do choose to speak, it will be nothing but Grade A bull crap.

That's just the way they are.

I'm inclined to agree with emoneypitt.  I think the pirates don't really have a future use for Sanchez or Wilson, and adding talent to their system need to be the priority.  Rebuilding is ugly in the short term, no question.  But I actually feel hope for the pirates for the first time in a long time.  It isn't hope for next year, but hope for the longer term.  And for years the pirates never sold high and bought low, and their farm system was incredibly weak.  Now that seems to be changing.  I'm still in the "give these guys a chance' position.  However, the only fly in the ointment on this to me is Nutting.  I stil need to be convinced that he will actually start paying our new players in the future if they indeed pan out. But I don't see any other alternative for the Pirates than what they are doing.  Baseball is broken, and money is the biggest key and the Buccos are down the scale.  True, the revenue sharing helps, but it isnt going to get a team like the Pirates the ability to stock themselves with top free agents.  Their only alternative is to take risks and try to get multiple-player returns for the few major leaguers they have.

It's July ...it's Pittsburgh...get ready for the "salary dumps"...Sanchez, LaRoche, Wilson, Grabow coming up next.

The Nuttings need to transfer more revenue from the Pirates to Seven Springs ... gotta upgrade those chair lifts and catering facilities.

Baseball is an expensive hobby. If the Nuttings don't have the financial wherewithal to compete, then they need to put the team up for sale, take their money and invest it their other businesses.

I have no problem with rebuilding the farm system. It's why there's a draft and the ability for all clubs to compete for top young free agents who are not included in the draft pool. The Pirates made one splash last year signing Alvarez, but imho that was a complete PR move to counter the Moskos pick two years ago. This year the front office reverted to form and picked based on "signability" not baseball ability.

It exactly right that once Wilson and Sanchez are gone, this will be a AAA-caliber club completely capable of losing 110-120 games.

There won't be a reason to keep Maholm, Duke, Capps or anyone else. In 3 years, McCutchen will be eligible for arbitration and too expensive for the Pirates to want to afford and so he, too, will be "sold high" for 2 or 3 "buy low" (read: flawed) prospects. It will be an endless cycle.

I guess it is a slow news day.  I can't wait for Steeler training camp to start so that it will give Bob different material to write about.  Or is that to rehash about.

I think Neal H. has stated what their plan is after every trade they've made.  They want to get more players to stock the system, and develop those players.   I don't think they are unwilling to build a winner.  I believe that is the goal that they've stated many time.

Hey ForbesFielder

Go stand by your remaining Forbes Field wall and take your Pirate Kool Aid and all their BS with you.  Smizik only speaks the truth.  Keep believing the liars--hope you live long enough.

Keep up the good work--Bob.

Keep writing what you write Bob.  Only with the help of silence can the incompetent continue to wield influence.  The Pirates need to know that we are not settling for Bobble Heads, Sky Blasts, Fireworks and 95 losses forever.

Those of you who are drinking the Kool-Aid, ask yourselves this question:

Do you honestly believe that McCutchen, Alvarez, Tabata or any other young and talented pipeline Bucco will be wearing the Pirate uniform when they are 29 years old?

I guess I still don't quite get the hatred directed toward Nutting and, to a lesser degree, Hunington and Coonelly.  What, exactly, were they supposed to do when faced with a major league team who's ceiling was mediocrity and a minor league system as bereft of talent as any expansion team?  Invest $12 million a year over 4 years in Jeff Suppan?

I, for one, view the potential trade of Sanchez as better than, say, sending Rajai Davis (who is still playing in a major league outfield) for Matt Morris while assuming all of his salary.  Nutting has shown his bona fides as far as I'm concerned in his investment in scouting and the international side (read today's main article) and in signing draft picks.  That's appropriate spending for where this franchise is today.

As a lifelong Bucs fan I'll take a couple of 100 loss seasons if they're developing talent along the way.  It'll be tough to watch, but not as tough as seeing the likes of Derek Bell patroling right field.  

As for communication, I have heard repeatedly what the plan is and I'm down with it.  I don't think the problem is communication it's that fans don't like hearing the hard truth that the team that has lost 16 straight years also has nothing going on in the minors and it will take time to correct, no matter how much money you throw at it.

DEC

Some of these comments are too much.  Every time someone says trading these guys is the right thing to do they are labeled and apologist or kool-aid drinker by someone who thinks it would have been a good idea to hang onto a 29 year old left fielder who has no power.

The Pirates have been very bad for a very long time.  At last there is a management team in place that recognizes this and is changing the business model.  They are trying to build a champion and to do so they need to move the mediocre major league talent that they have and acquire young talent that can grow together and become a winner.  I don't know why more people wouldn't embrace that instead of hanging onto the overpaid, average players that are currently on the roster.  I'm sure Sanchez and Wilson are nice guys and their work in the community is admirable, but I'm a lot more excited about seeing a real talent like Lastings Milledge develop into an all-star than I am about seeing Jack Wilson swing and miss at three more pitches in the dirt with a guy on second base.  Florida, Cleveland, Minnesota and Colorado won divisions and some of them have made the World Series through rebuilding processes like this one that we are in now, but whatever, I'll just keep drinking the kool-aid because I'm an apologist.

Bob, I don't like the trades but, in a way, I get them and see what they are doing.  I don't know if it will work but, if it does, winning may not be as far off as you think.  

The strategy, as it appears to me, is that you amass ballplayers coming into the prime of their careers and tie them up for the period they are in their prime.  If all the career years come together at the same time, it follows that you have a pretty good team on the field (see the '79 Pirates as an example of a team where everybody played at the top of their game in one season).  

So, Nate McLouth, 27, is in the prime of his career (and I point to the Sports Illustrated Baseball Preview issue that says that the Pirates best move would be to trade McLouth) and a trade for players that are coming into their prime increases the pool, and the likelihood, that you can obtain performances that will assist winning.  

Nyjer Morgan, who I loved, was 29.  Chances are that he is at the peak of his career right now.  If Lastings Milledge (big potential/not much risk) pans out, it will be at about the same time McCutcheon comes into his own.  Two-Thirds of your outfield is then pretty formidable.  

Sanchez is 31.  Sure he is a former batting champion and an All-Star, but what are the chances he will keep it up?  

When the Red Sox traded Nomar, that trade appeared to go against conventonal baseball wisdom.  My question is, do the Red Sox win the World Series without making that trade?  I don't think so.  

I have been a Pirate Fan for 38 years (I jumped on the bandwagon in 1971. I was 6).  I am frustrated.  Even more frustrated because my 6 year old liked Nate McLouth (he played for the Pirates in his little league and wore number 13).  I'm frustrated because I liked Nyjer Morgan, thought he was a good ballplayer and a likable guy (I also think that he is a symptom of the Littlefield/Bonifay era. Specifically, leaving guys in the minors far too long).  However, I see a plan that, while I'm not saying it will work, I think can work and am still willing to give these guys (Nutting, Coonelly and Huntington) a chance.    

Nothing this management team does will ever suprise me. They are who we thought they are, a Mickey Mouse outfit.

It's not that gutting the entire team is not the way to go, it might be what is required.

The payroll next year could be 22 million or less if they can unload the three players in question. This is a joke. Major League Baseball needs to tell Mr. Nutting that you will not get a dime of luxury tax charity if you do not meet a certain level of spending the teams prfits on payroll.

As it would stand next year, the entire cost of the Major League payroll will be covered by teams trying to compete.

Mr. Nutting will keep telling the fan base about all this money being spent is in player development and there is no way we could know all the facts.

The lack of a salary cap is not the problem, not having a floor is. This ownership group is playing the game perfect and is laughing all the way to the bank.

I would really like to see some of you put your money where your mouth is and propose better ideas than the ones Huntington and Coonelly are doing.  These guys aren't Bonifay or Littlefield.  What use do we have for LaRoche, Sanchez, or Wilson?  Are we winning with them?  Take a look at our farm system.  I recall a time when Chad Hermanson was our top prospect.  He wouldn't even scrape the top 20 in our farm system now.  We have guys like Pedro Alvarez (who I think should play first cause I like Andy LaRoche), Jose Tabata, Brad Lincoln, Tony Sanchez (look at how well he's already producing), Rudy Owens, Robbie Grossman, etc...  Look at all the draft picks we've been able to sign.  Look at them going after Sano in the Dominican.  We are the front runners to sign him and we will if he turns out to really be 16.  Huntington has made some very shrewd trades and I think sending Morgan to the Nationals was great.  McCutchen is a stud and Charlie Morton has been solid if not a little inconsistent so far.  I say we trade Doumit too.  Why keep him... I bet we'll get a better return for him than anyone else and at least Jaramillo and Diaz stay healthy.  Sanchez will be our catcher by next spring at the latest.

Thanks Bob.  I can't understand all of these people who buy the garbage from Nutting and his crew about this is the only way to build a winner.  The Pirates are not the smallest market team in baseball.  There are 5 teams in smaller markets and guess what, they all can afford payrolls more than 50% higher than Pittsburgh.  Why is that?  Why is it Nutting claims small market as an excuse for his payroll?  It is proven, goggle it, that more wins lead to more attendance.

Nutting has been in charge for at least 5 years.  He set the budgets that Littlefieldl had to live with.  How can anyone think that he has changed his act in the last 2 years?  By the end of this year, the Pirates will likely receive more in revenue sharing than their end of season payroll.  Of course, that information is not released any more because it would be a public relations nightmare for bottom line Bob.

To Retire #21-- Thanks for your efforts, but you're never going to convert the Kool-Aid crowd.  They consider there to be some sort of misguided honor in continuing to be positive about the team year after insane year, maybe so they can grandstand should the team ever turn around, and talk about how they are "true fans".  Ha.  We know which side of this argument truth and history supports.

I for one would like a competent, 83-79 season.  What is so bad about that?  In the NL Central, that usually means you are competitive until, say, August.  You usually have some decent players around to get behind and know a little better.  You can actually score some points in arguments you have with fans from other teams.  In short, it might actually be fun.  Remember the '97 season?  The Pirates were just under .500, but had Houston in their sights until the last weekend.  That was fun.

The idea that the only acceptable course of action is to keep blowing up the team until you hit the lottery on five prospects simultaneously is ridiculous to me because I believe there are more categories than "Won the WS" and "Loser" in terms of baseball success.  Any statistician will tell you, sacrificing a 25% chance of getting a wild card in any given year for a .01% chance of winning the WS down the road is bad for anyone's utility, yet the Pirates will never understand this.  Or maybe they do-- that's what all the $$$$ they're getting is for.

Think, people.

I also can't add to 162.  Hopefully the passion in my argument makes up for that.

It may very well be that the only way to compete effectively is to make a bunch of unpopular trades.  I have no problem with that.  The problem is that during the offseason, when fans are making their ticket package purchase decisions, the ownership was adament that winning this year was also a priority.  It appears that a plan that paid little attention to winning this year was already in the works.  That is, I think, what Mr. Smizik is trying to draw attention to with these articles.  Not trades good, or trades bad, but whether such trades are consistent with what was told to the paying public before the season.

Jtownjohn -  Are any of those teams winning?  Look at the Mets... they make me glad I'm a Pirates fan.  How about the Cubs?  Are they winning?  A high payroll does not make a winning team?  Who are we gonna spend money on?  Have you paid attention to the way the A's and Twins build their teams?  You should read Moneyball and learn about Billy Beane's strategy for scouting prospects and building a team.  Huntington is doing it the right way and it will pay off in a few years.  Look at when him and Shapiro traded Bartolo Colon.  They got Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips.  All 3 weren't considered blue chip prospects and fans were outraged.  Look how that trade turned out.  Damaso Marte sucks and Xavier Nady is going through his second Tommy John surgery.  Don't the Yanks wish they had Ross Ohlendorf right now?  How about Jose Tabata?  I, for one, think he's gonna turn out pretty good.  I think both the Nate McLouth and Nyjer Morgan trades are gonna both be in the Pirates favor in the end.  Pay attention to the big picture.  Look at Royals, they always try to spend money and they still suck.  They have Zack Greinke and Alex Gordon and bunch of no names because they have no farm system.  A good team needs a solid 9 with replacements available in the minors, not a few good guys and a bunch of scrubs.  That's why The Rangers never win and it's why the Orioles never win.  Look at the Yankees, they are old and have no farm system.  You can only buy so many championships before it catches up to you.  The sweet never tastes as sweet without the bitter and us Pirate fans will enjoy a World Series win more than a Yankees fan ever will.  We're spoiled anyways, we have the Penguins and Steelers.

Sure they can lose 110!  The problem with the Salary dump approach by the current Management is that they are not getting "The Top" Prospects in return for starting players......

Attendance has been declining---why is it not almost zero...current management has gutted incentive to attend, or hope!...but alas, they are approaching their goal of a $20M Salary Ceiling---which will maximize profits......why is Adam LaRoche still here?  Does anyone care?  Days til Latrobe?

Bob,

I think the FO has been forthcoming in what they're doing. They're trying to build a consistent, winning franchise. Trading what little talent we have now for more later is the only way to do it, given how barren the minor league cupboard was when they arrived. They've got the right idea. Have they made the right moves? Too soon to tell. Will Nutting pony up down the road to keep players and add a free agent or two? Or did he plow his Pirates profits into his other business units? That's the big question we won't know the answer to until we're all at least five year older.

Kozy21

I'm curious... How did that 2002 draft work out for Billy Beane and the A's? I read the book, loved the book, and followed his picks for awhile, but then life got in the way and I lost track. The only guy I recognize at the MLB level is Nick Swisher, who isn't in Oakland anymore. I'd love to see a follow-up book on Moneyball that details how that draft worked out. I don't think it lived up to the hype. Proving that with unproven baseball talent, it's just a crapshoot.

It doesn't matter anymore. The horses are out of the barn, and closing the door makes no sense now. Since they traded away McLouth, Burnett, and Morgan, along with last year's trades, there's no hope for the Pirates to achieve a winning season, let alone contend, for at least 3, more likely 5 years, and that's only if some of the acquired players work out. If they don't, it will likely never happen.

I agree, Bob. At this point, the Pirates SHOULD trade whoever they can, including Adam LaRoche, Sanchez, Wilson, Maholm, Duke, Grabow, and even Capps. Anyone over 25 years old qualifies. They may as well just go back to square one, accept the fact that they will lose 110-120 games in 2010 and 2011, as the Tigers did a few years back, and hope enough of the players they get back turn into players that can help achieve that elusive winning season in 2013 or 2014.

And lose that many they will. They're going to lose 90-100 this year WITH solid middle-infield defense (although Sanchez doesn't have the range many 2B do). Imagine how much worse it'll be with inexperienced SS-2B learning on the job, particularly now that the Pirates may have given up on Bixler (is he now playing CF in Indy?)and playing Cruz at SS.

No, since Pirate brass apparently don't care how many fans they alienate (no matter how much smoke they're blowing up our collective rear ends), they may as well bite the bullet, start over again, and hope someone still cares in 2013. If not, they can always move the team. But at least Coonellyand Huntington will still have their jobs, since they couldn't possibly be held accountable for the the mess the Pirates will be between now and then, could they?? After all, it's not like they traded away the most productive offensive outfield in baseball or anything. For a bunch of players that are, with a single exception (Andy LaRoche, and that's a generous assessment), struggling at whatever level they've been assigned to.

Ah, corporate welfare at its best.  When MLB listened to the small market teams and created a tax for the rich teams to "give a hand up" to the smaller teams, it was praised.

But the reality is, the Pirate ownership group is treating it like a hand-out.  Why would they want to sell?  It's a sweet deal!  Why would they want to "improve" their team if it meant less money for them?  It's a sweet deal!  It's like somebody PAYING you to NOT work hard!  It's a sweet deal!

The PEOPLE of Western PA were wise when they voted down corporate welfare back when the stadiums were needing to be built, cuz all the billionaires could not afford to build it themselves.  The state legislature overrode the mandate (2-1?) of the people, and came up with a state-level corporate welfare system.

Now we have PNC Park for 8 years, and still no commitment by ownership (other than a commitment to pocketing the NY Yankees welfare payments)

Let's update Jason Kendall's commentary to an incoming new Bucco of "Welcome to Hell...." to..."PNC Park, Hell with the roof removed".

I seriously question my OWN sanity for PAYING Directv to WATCH this occuring (again) from Ft. Lauderdale! But then again, seeing the dismantling of Seven Springs by the Nuttings and the what he has done toeveryone up there, is it any wonder that the bottom line is income generation, even though, on both cases, he is REALLY alienating his customers and emloyees. Oh, Mark Cuban, please come home...........

The Pirates should not be allowed to wear black and gold uniforms until they reach .500. The Steelers and Pens deserve better athletic peer performance. It has been waaay too long. I remember when Wakefield was on the staff. When the Steelers were out of the playoff chase a couple years ago they did not give away Hines, Big Ben or Troy to help the Patriots. Let's hold the team management accountable.

Bob, no matter what the front office says, the lynchmob will not believe them, the torch's are lit, I think it is a little late. As far as I am concerned, they told us their plan and they are sticking to it.

I knew and I know what is going on.

The new system is working well. If anyone was naive enough to think the entire system could be changed in a year and a half and we would have winning baseball, they needed their heads examined.

(They have not used the `R' word -- rebuilding. -- Bob Smizik)

You want Coonelly & Huntington to come clean?

Do you honestly think they will sit in front of a microphone and say:

"Look. We've already been told by Bob Nutting that he will never let us have a payroll over $50 million, let alone $75 or $80 million, like Cincinnnati & Milwaukee. So our plan is to draft the best players we can, keep them cheap for their renewable years, and if they work out sign them to 3 or 4 year deals that eat up their arbitation years and maybe the first year of free agency, and then trade them after 4.5 - 5.5 years with the team. Hopefully we'll get lucky at some point for a year or two and break .500 or get a wild card spot."

Is that what you really expect Coonelly & Huntingdon to sit in front of a microphone and say?

Buy your McCutchen jerseys with a sewn on name plate. That way you can change it when he's traded in July 2014.

Drafting talent is a crapshoot (see Bryan Bullington).

Signing MLB free agents is a crapshoot (see Mike Hampton, Jason Giambi).

So, the question becomes, where do you take your chances? I say in the draft/amateur arena, and I'd take boatload of chances. Sign kids away from college at whatever price, aggressively sign in the Dominican, Japan, or wherever. My only problem with the current Front Office is that they still haven't gotten all of those 3-10 round picks under contract. I thought they drafted a "slot" guy in the first round so they could sign all these extra "college bound" guys...

Gene Collier made the following statement in his article yesterday:

1979 -- The last Pirates world championship, and I don't mean the most recent.

My heart sank when I read that statement.  Not because it was negative.  But because, in my heart, I (already) knew it was true.

People will get excited again about the Buccos when they flirt with .500.  They’ll be more excited when they are battling for a (weak) division title or possibly a wild card.

A World Series?  With thi s ownership group?  Never.

It’s a sad day (era) for baseball in Pittsburgh.

I've been putting off joining, just reading for a while, but I've gotta say that it frustrates me that so many baseball fans in Pittsburgh get so caught up in holding onto a bunch of mediocre veterans because they happen to be the best the Pirates have to offer right now.  McLouth, Morgan, Sanchez, Laroche... these are not guys a championship team is made of.  The minor league system was so depleted of talent that there's almost no one at all who's ready to come up and produce.

Keeping aging veterans with no chance of winning is something a poor organization does.  It's something the Pirates have done in the past.  I was upset when the Pirates turned down Jair Jurjjens for Jack Wilson a few years ago because a no-hit, all glove shortstop can be replaced by any team with even a reasonable farm system.  Just because the Pirates don't have a replacement doesn't mean he should be kept or that his value is any higher to anyone else.  

Huntingdon has a plan to develop a deep minor league system with high end prospects sprinkled through it so that when this group of prospects comes up and is ready to contribute, there's also a deep minor league system in place to support them.  When that happens, you have the Tampa Bay Rays.  No, it doesn't mean they'll be as good as the Rays are now because the Rays did a truly remarkable job hitting on picks and developing the best minor league system in baseball, but it's a worthy model to follow.  

It remains to be seen if the prospects pan out, but at least they're trying to build things the right way instead of keeping mediocre veterans and complementing them with more mediocre veterans, washed up 36 year olds, and youngtsers who are forced into the lineup because no one else can do it.

I get it.  People want to see a winner.  People *** because they didn't like the way Littlefield and Co. did things, and now they *** when a group comes in and does things completely differently.  But for the first time in just about forever, there's a group in place that has a plan in place and is executing it very, very well so far.  It's how the successful teams build winners.

It's not Kool-Aid.  It's baseball.  And in the future, if the Pirates trade away talent for prospects due to salary concerns, they'll almost certainly have the minor league depth to replace it.  Which is how it should be.

Hey Kozy 21, Thanks for asking.  Yes, those smaller market teams have won exactly 100 games more than the Pirates over the last 2 ½ years.  First place finishes included!  The Mets are 4 under with injuries to 2 of their best offensive players.  The Cubs are at 500.  One thing about those teams, they offer their fans hope.  They don’t pull the carpet out from under them.  

I did read Moneyballl.  Great story as long as you were the only team trying it.  It also requires that a team does hard analysis of their draft and follows it.  Does the fact that Oakand is now winning less than the Pirates make it still the ONLY path to success?

Broken promises and pocket the money.   I had season tickets for 5 years before I got tired of seeing the team broken apart every year.  Do you buy season tickets?  How could anyone given the history of the Pirates breaking their team down every year.  What has this ownership done to show they are committed?  Don’t try to say they increased the draft budget, because you have to actually spend the money in that budget.  And even if they do, if they cut the major league team payroll as they do every year, there isn’t any increase.

Bob

(They have not used the `R' word -- rebuilding. -- Bob Smizik)

___________________________

Would the "R" word make a difference? Rebuilding, Renewing, Reworking, building.

It is hard to believe people are not smart enough to see the changes being made are being made because the players that are here are not good enough for a present or future run by this organization. I will have to admit, it took me a while to realize that the players we have/had were just not that good and the system was barren, completely barren from top to bottom.

Huntington only had chips from the the major league team to work with, he had no chips in the rest of the system to trade or bring up to help the parent club.

Everyone complains that they have no middle infield replacements if Freddie and Jack are gone, THAT IS PRECISELY THE PROBLEM.

We need to get talent somewhere besides slow moving draft classes.

Nice write-up Bob but, IMHO, I think the real question is (and should be); Does the PBC Front Office have the right idea?

I, for one, like what the PBC is doing. The PBC IS NOT going to win with this group of players. The Marlins have shown everyone how to win(ie. be competitive)!

Get rid of Ad. Laroche, Sanchez, Wilson, Capps, and Grabow for some AAA talented prospects. Go with a 2010 lineup of Pearce (1B), D. Young (2B), New Player (SS), An. Laroche (3B), Milledge (OF), McCutch (OF), Jones (OF), Doumit (C), and keep Maholm and Duke...... The PBC won't be very good, but they WILL be hungry!

Bring up Tabata, Alvarez, and Walker ASAP (plus anyone of the prospects they get in trades) and the PBC will have a nucleus to work with!

I hate watching the PBC lose just as much as the next fan, but the PBC DEFINITELY needs to restock to have a chance to win. I love my PBC, always have and always will!!! (BTW: I am 47 yrs old and been a fan since birth, thanx to my Mother)

P.S. Love your Blog, Keep up the good work!!!

Why doesn't Baseball just move or contract this franchise ? They stink, they have always stunk and always will stink. They will NEVER have an above .500 season again in any readers lifetime. Guaranteed. They have no talent now, never have and never will. If Baseball ever understood that this team is doing nothing less then detroying its collective product, they would do something about it.

Why do we continue to support the Pirates? Nutting laughs all the way to the bank as we, the fans, sit with hopelessness. QUIT GOING-I dont care if its skyblast or some washed up band from the 90s playing a free concert. Seriously we're all suckers!  F-U Nutting spend some $$$$

Pingback from  Smizik: Pirates May Lose 110 Games in 2010

  I have finally reached the breaking point.  It took this long, but the mismanagement/butchering of this team finally forced me to sign up and post.  What was once annoying is now painful.  Joking with my co-workers about the Bucs trading for "prospects" has gotten old.  The rebuilding nonsense stopped working years ago.  

 Someone mentioned the Royals spending money, which is a bit of a stretch.  Hey, great!  Our team is slightly smarter than another franchise that fields pathetic teams, loses annually, and has a fanbase just as mad as us!  I recall visiting Kauffman Stadium to watch the PIrates and Royals settle the "worst team in baseball" debate of 2006.  I was shocked to see so many fellow Pirate fans supporting a miserable squad.  The overwhelming comment was "at least we have the Steelers".  We all had a good laugh and talked of the SuperBowl win.  As expected, the Pirates showed that they were clearly the worst team in baseball.  The Royals scored 15 runs that day.  FIFTEEN.  The Steelers hosted the Chiefs later that year and allowed 7 points.  SEVEN.  KC's baseball team outscored its football team.  Oh well.  At least we have the Steelers.

You know, I am a big time DIE hard Bucs fan going to Philly tomorrow and Sunday to see them play.  They became my fav NL team after they beat my fav AL (Yanks-I'm from Buffalo originally) back in 1960 and I root harder for the Bucs then the Yanks because I have seen enough Yanks success in the past 15 years to last my lifetime.

So it absolutely pains me to see what is happening to my Bucs.  I mean, I have 11 different Pirate hats and I go to sleep at night wondering what the heck is going on.

I mean, I hear Neil "I know nothing" Huttington talk about "clubhouse culture" and building a "championship caliber team" but I am baffled because this is all talk.  I see no results.  There are no guarantees that all these bodies they are bringing in will bring results.  I mean, Brandon Mess instead of Jason Bay?  How the heck is that going to translate into a championship?  This is flat out NUTS!  

It is almost as if they think that trading away all-stars, batting champions and rookies-of-the-year for unproven bodies is going to change the "clubhouse culture".  Can someone please shed some light on this and let me know what I am missing here?  If they had kept their lineup from last year and added a quality pitcher or two, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  You need to spend money to make money.

we'll be lucky to win 10 games the rest of the season!!! STOP GOING TO THE GAMES!!! SELL THE TEAM!! We need to organize an event where everyone burns their Pirate parafanilia. Use Pnc Park for concert venues.

Pitbulz, you aren't kidding that that lineup won't win many games... that lineup is bad.  Pearce can't hit major league pitching, Young can't field like a major league second baseman.  We have no shortstop in our system who can play.  Laroche is a 5 homer per year third basemen and that outfield combined might hit as many homers in three years as two of the outfielders we traded away (Bay and McLouth) will combine to hit by a typical All Star break.  You get rid of Capps and Grabow for AAA prospects and you'll not have anybody in the bullpen who can get anybody out after Duke and Maholm leave the game.

In addition, Walker can't even hit minor league pitching, forget about promoting him.  Tabata and Alvarez will not be promoted anytime soon because the FO needs to delay the start of their service time clocks in order to put off their first years of arbitration and then free agency.  So Tabata and Alvarez (both of whom have been injured recently) when they do arrive will arrive in June of whatever year they finally make their major league debut.

By then, Duke and Maholm will join the scrap heap of traded memories for the 7th and 10th best prospects in the fill in the blank team's minor league system of your choice.

Just for the heck of it, I put together a line up given all the trades Huntington has made save Bay, McLouth and Morgan. Here's what today's roster might be and low and behold, it's just a bit over 50M with only 1 hole to fill at 3B:

OUTFIELD

Bay 7.8M

McLouth 2.5M

McCutchen 0.4M

Morgan 0.411M

Total OF: 11.111M

INFIELD

Wilson 7.4M

Sanchez 6.25M

Laroche 7.05M

3b ???M

Cruz 0.40M

Tot INF 21.10M

CATCHER

Doumit 2.15M

Jaramillo 0.4M

Tot C 2.55M

Bench

Hinske 1.5M (3b/1b/OF)

Diaz 0.408M (c/inf?)

Tot Bench 1.908M

PITCHER

Maholm 2.5M

Duke 2.2M

Snell 3.2M

Capps 2.4M

Grabow 2.3M

Karstens 0.401M

Ohlendorf 0.413M

Burnett 0.408M

Chavez 0.408M

Veal       0.4M

Gorzo 2.0M

Vasquez 0.4M

Tot P 17.03M

Tot PAYROLL 51.15M

The line up might be something like this:

McCutchen, CF

Sanchez, SS

McLouth, RF

Bay, LF

Doumit, C

LaRoche, 1B

???, 3B

Wilson, 2B

P

Two questions the Pirates brass must answer.

1. Define "depth".  Is it having 2 players that are worthy of promotion to the big leagues in a year? Three? More?  We need them to answer this so we know when we can expect the talent on hand to be kept around for a while, and give us a shot at a decent season.

2. Will the Pirates payroll ever be out of the bottom 5 in the league?  How about the bottom 10?  If yes, when?  If not, then they will remain a losing joke of a team.

As for Sanchez possibly being traded, or Capps, or anyone else, I don't care any more.  Wake me in 5 or 8 years when maybe, MAYBE, they start winning - if they're still in Pittsburgh.

Arrrrrrrgh!   The Pirates management is simply the worst from my point of view.  It really does seem that Nutting is having a multi-year fire sale of assets and it won't stop until there is nothing of any value left.  Is he planning to milk the fans for what he can for a season or two with a major-league low payroll and then sell the team?  If so, good riddance but I hope the next owners will be Pittsburgh-friendly.  That may be a long shot, more probably they'd be Portland-friendly...

Oops, of course Sanchez at second and Wilson at short.

Retire#21,

Of course I know this. The PBC WILL be the WORST team in baseball, just like the Nats are this year. BUT, D. Young has some upside as a 2B, and Pearce hasn't had enough AB's to justify your statement.

I am just stating that it is time to go in another direction. The PBC has lost for 17 seasons, its time to blow up the team and start COMPLETELY over, IMHO!!

I don't know if you can remember watching the '71 and '79 teams grow-up together, or the '85 Drug scandal, but it is time to start over.

The PBC is a small market club, just like the Marlins! The PBC is going to have to re-up every 5-6 yrs by trading their talent for prospects, just like the Marlins have/are doing! How do you think the Marlins got Hanley!?

Until there is a SALARY CAP, this is all that can be done! Look at the bright side: Ticket prices SHOULDN'T go up for a couple years, lol!!!

Bob, that's brutal honesty!

Pitbulz....It's business as usual in blowing up the team and starting over for "at least" the third or fourth time since '93

Perhaps some that think this is different are under the age of 25, and did not really understand what was happening earlier in their life.

This has been done, it's just being done with a slightly different spin regarding the verbage.

Believe me....If this regime stays in power, it will be done again in the next 2-3 years.

I repeat....There is nothing different about this supposed plan.

It's an endless cycle that needs to be stopped.

tomato1,

IMHO, I look at "depth" as : being able to plug a nplayer into a position that has become to expensive to keep.

Examples:

    1B- LaRoche= to expensive for production. There isn't a player to replace him, so we have no depth. Jones maybe, or Pearce. I like Jones, but as retire#21 has stated, Pearce just isn't ready, and who knows about Jones.

    2B- Sanchez= to expensive. I LOVE Sanchez but, c'mon, is he worth $8M. NO PLAYER TO REPLACE HIM= No depth.

    SS- Wilson= to expensive. Same as above, no depth.

I think yinz get my drift. I like how the Marlins and the Rays are going. Remember that they USED to suck!

BTW, I like the Milledge trade. It IS high-risk - high-reward, hopefully it works out.

Yea, Bob.  It's a big secret what they are doing.  Worst. article. ever.  Do you have any idea what an asinine statement it is to ask whether they will lose 110 games?  Only two teams have done that in the last 40 years.  Forget the fans, do you know what an incredible insult you are making to the current players?  Of course not, you are just out there to be outrageous and write things that rile up the "fans" who have no concept of what the front office is trying to do.  You are supposed to be a journalist.  Why don't you go ask the questions and then write an article about what you learn?

BTW, IMHO, The PBC isn't going anywhere!!! The stadium lease ties them to Pittsburgh for years to come!

@ Bazzini, I know that this has been the never ending process since '93. The PBC has not had depth in their system for ages. I, for one, am willing to give this a try. I am not ready to quit on the PBC. If yinz people are, so be it, but then you are NOT a true PITTSBURGH FAN!!!

There are worse things in life than loving a lousy baseball team.

There is zero chance that I would visit these blogs if I planned on "quiting."

The only "quitting" I see is over in those offices at PNC Park.

It is them that have quit on the paying fans.

The swindle goes on....and on....and on....and on....

superb article, Bob.   Continue to press.....the Pirates need media pressure to at least keep them somewhat honest.  

Huntington continues to run this time like a rotisserie league geek.    He has no concept of the human side of building a TEAM through a group of MEN that bond together and, with synergy (yes, I realize, this is a term far too complex for Huntington) they as a group accomplish more than the sum of the parts.   Continually dumping salaries for prospects, again and again and again and year in and year out with no end in sight, is a self-licking ice cream cone.   Let's hope Hunt is enjoying it.    

If we kept Bay he would have gone somewhere else after this season when his contract expired.  The Red Sox are having trouble coming to an agreement with him now on an extension -- how would the Pirates have been able to afford him?  If you want to argue about the return the Pirates got for Bay that is fair but trading him was the right move.

Bob

The current Pirate organization of Nutting, Coonely, Huntington & Russell is only interested in keeping payroll as low as possible.  Their is no "plan" to win - that would only happen by accident.  I haven't been "drinking-the-koolaide" but I really believe that this season was their best shot to make the play-offs.  The division leader was barely above .500 when they made the McLouth.  But instead of taking this as their chance, they blow-up the team for the future.  If they didn't have to trade McLouth to make room for McCutchen.  They have Freddy, Jack, big LaRoche and Grabow under contracts that they can live with.  Based on the McLouth trade and the Fire Sale attitude of the GM, everybody knows that they aren't going to get much in return for them.  Even if they sould get some of their prospects to become sucessful some day in the far distant future, there no gaurantee that the other teams in the league won't be better.  One thing is for SURE, the other teams will be willing to pay more than Nutting's Pirates.

@BFGrad,

You have McLouth playing RF. McLouth stated earlier this season that he didn't want/wouldn't move from CF. The McLouth trade caught me by surprize. I don't particularly like a player telling me where and where not he will play. Could that be part of the reason he got traded? I don't know, I'll ask Bob.

(I don't believe McLouth ever publicly said he would reject a move to left field -- which is where he would have been moved. That's not in his makeup. I think the Pirates were understandably a bit concerned about offending him -- as the incumbent Gold Glove CF and one of the team's best players -- but to the best of my knowledge he never rejected such a move. -- Bob Smizik)

BFGrad - maybe you're not seeing it, but that's the same lineup that was terrible last year, with McCutchen in there in place of Nady.  It's the same team with no pitching, NOTHING in the minors, and NO hope for the future.  It's not a winning team, it's not a .500 team, and it's a team clinging to veterans for no reason at all.

And that's the type of attitude that sucks around here.  People want to keep the mediocre veterans around when the team isn't doing well with them on the roster.

Sanchez is a solid player.  He hits for a good average, but has no power, no speed, and doesn't draw walks.  He's an average second baseman who should be easy to replace.  Why isn't he?  Because the Pirates had neglected the minor leagues for years and years and any replacement for him is several years away from the majors.

This group is paying a price for what the group before them did.  Kudos to the current ownership for realizing this team has far more holes to fill than a couple of quick fixes at the major league level.  Build it up from the ground up, whether people around here understand why or not.  They'll get judged on the results, but the process is the right one.

Weren't people asking the same thing about this year after the horrible pace they were on after the trade deadline last year?  If the team wins two out three this weekend they will have the same record that the team with nady, bay, and McLouth had.  Why don't we wait and see what happens.

Thanx Bob, boy, that was quick!!

Kudos to NorthHills, I like your way of thinking!!

BTW Everyone,

Didn't Detroit lose like 118 games a few years back(2006?). Look where they are now.

Maybe I am being a hopeless (or is it hopefull) romantic, but I believe in the PBC. If the PBC would ever leave Pittsburgh, children in this area would never get to experience some of the memories that many of us have experienced (ie. '60, '71, '79, Roberto and Pops, Bob Prince and Lanny). What a loss that would be!!!

Pitbulz....Do some research and see how Detroit made that turn around...ok?

Please look into that and you will see it is NOT anything like what continues to go on with this regime.

BTW,

Did anybody notice that the PBC signed 6 Latin American Youngsters (3-16 yr olds, 3-17 yr olds), 2 of which were infielders. 1 2B and 1 SS. Granted they are a long way away, but it adds to their depth at 2B and SS.

I will be glad when Alvarez, Tabata, and McCutch are in the same lineup. Soon, I hope!

@ Bazzini,

IS that an angry vibe that I'm picking up!! (That's how I took it). If so, CHILL, if not, MY BAD.

They made some big trades for Cabrera +, they had young prospects like Verlander.

The point I was trying to make was: THAT THEY LOST 118(?) GAMES ONE YEAR AND A FEW YRS LATER LOOK WHERE THEY ARE.

The PBC isn't going to be able to trade for a Cabrera, but they can build from within. Like I have said b4, I like how Tampa and FLA have done things. I would like (and hope) the PBC can do the same and turn things around.

I may be wrong but,

I look at:

     An. Laroche as a 90-20+-90 kind of player

     McCutch as a 100-15-75- 30 SB kind of player.

     Doumit as a 90-20-100 (uninjured) kind of player.

     Milledge as a 90-20-100 kind of player.

That's a start, now lets get the pitching going.

Who didn't see this coming?  It's time for the owners to decide whether they want to own a major league lteam or a minor league team.  If they want to play in the majors they'll have to pay major league salaries or else they'll never be able to compete.

The Pirates have a proud tradition and the downward spiral of the past 16 years needs to come to an end sooner rather than later.  You can't rebuild indefinitely--we demand a winning team!  If these owners don't care they should sell to someone who does, and take their profits and go buy a minor league team somewhere else because that's what they are--bush league owners.

Pitbulz, indeed I remember the 1971 and 79 teams, I was born in 63.  I don't know that the 79 team grew up together as much as you are thinking.  Madlock at 3rd came via trade.  Foli at SS was a trade.  Garner at 2nd was a trade.  The platoon in the outfield of Milner and Robinson was a trade.  Pitchers like Bibby and Blyleven were from trades.   Lee Lacy was a trade.    

Mr. Smizik, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

@ Retire#21,

Ah yes, I 'member. All those things you stated are TRUE, but that '79 team grew (up) together so fast thanks to Pops. I can't ever remember (DOB-1962) a team gelling as fast as they did. They were truly a team of destiny. Just thinking of them brings tears to my eyes, lol

Bazzini

Actually, it's very similar, only they're farther along in the process and generate revenues that allow them to increase the payroll substantially.  Lots of homegrown players, good drafting, followed by a couple trades and one big free agent signing mixed in.

Porcello, Verlander, Zumaya, Inge, and Granderson were home grown players.  They traded two premier, blue-chip prospects (Maybin and Miller) to get Miguel Cabrera.  They traded another very good OF prospect (Joyce) to get Edwin Jackson.  Gallaraga was 26 and only thought of as organization depth when they traded a minor leaguer for him.  Ordonez was their lone big free agent signing back in 2005, and he's now a platoon outfielder.

Can you imagine the Pirates trading Alvarez and McCutchen to get a guy like Miguel Cabrera?  People would be complaining that we have Cabrera and nothing else - and they'd be right.

The Pirates don't HAVE any blue chip prospects they can afford to deal because they aren't even close to having the kind of depth it'll take to win.  Building depth takes time, and the prior ownership didn't get it.  The current ownership does.  

Hey Bob,

You can't make everyone happy. I totally disagree with Stu, everyones entitled to their opinion. I'm pretty sure your thick skinned from all your years of writing.

I was bummed out when i heard you were retiring. I would always read yours and Gene Colliers articles, still do. I am glad you have this blog, and I don't always like (agree) with what you say either. Instead of insulting someone, I would rather have conversations. Keep up the good work!

@ Bazzini,

GREAT research, and great point proven, Thanx.

The PBC better NOT trade Alvarez and McCutch, I'LL KILL SOMEONE (just kidding internet police, lol).

Pitbulz, I'm with you bro.  The 71 team was younger and was just beginning their dominance.  The 79 team was a group of veterans who had career years together for one last hurrah.  They were close in 78 and found a way to get it done in 79.  But this Pirates organization will not be able to duplicate that.  This organization is trying to build depth with youth, hope that enough of them catch fire together to be contenders for a couple seasons, then fire sale those guys in their arbitration years for more minor leaguers, and start the process all over again.  It remains to be seen if they are eventually successful at being competitive because by the time people like Alvarez and Tabata arrive, pitchers like Maholm and Duke will be gone.

We should all note that while teams like the A's, Twins, Rays and Indians have been competitive at times with this approach, none has won a World Series with it.  The Marlins of 2003 did, but the 1997 Marlins were loaded with high priced talent moreso than young players.

 I love the spin being put on the International players they sign.  WOW!  They sign teenage kids from faraway lands...and call it DEPTH.  Most of us call it a DESPERATE GAMBLE.  Praying that they hit big with one of these clowns.  DEPTH is hilarious.  At one time, Pete Gonzalez was "depth" at the QB position.  Depth is meaningless if the players never develop.

Bob I know you have a better memory than I do. BUT WTF are you talking about? I thought you supported the McLouth trade? I thought you were for many of the Pirates front office ideas, trades, going forward? Now you suggest pirates fans deserve better? I know you have supported with many others the BAY, NADY and others deals of last season. I think its just TOTALLY INSANE our procedures. I am just horribly disappointed with pirates procedure. I will defer to you on my quoting you. But my memory says you were on board with the trades. David

If losing 110 games in 2010 will get them 82 wins in 2011, I'm all for it!

I'm pretty sure e-one here thinks (knows) that the PBC isn't gonna win many with what they have now. I would trade Ad. Laroche, Sanchez, Wilson, Capps, Grabow and maybe a couple others, to get some AAA pospects on the verge of Major League readiness.

The PBC is gonna have to do something DRASTIC to turn it around. I'll take the 110 losses to make the Pirates better in the long run. IMHO!!!

There's no angry vibe, I just think that Detroit is a very good example of what can be done when you get a real owner.

They didn't add by subtraction, they kept the working parts, got rid of the bad parts....and added.

In the meantime, I'm sure they've paid close attention to their minor leagues, international players, etc.

They also hired a real manager in Jim Leyland....A manager that might've come back here if they would have offered him the job and promised to give him some help on the field.

Detroit is an "excellent" example of what the Pirates should've followed.

On top of it, Detroit is a disaster economically....but they make the Pirates look like a Double A organization at best.

@Retire#21,

'97 Marlins were as you said, but I think that the 2003 team won because of them getting rid of their high-priced talent of '97.  Hey, I'll take a World Championship every 6-7 yrs. FLA isn't too bad this year.

Every April, I think this is gonna be the year. And by July, I'm saying 'wait til next yr'. Well, one of these days its gonna be next yr.

o.k  first things first...what else bob, would you have the Pirates do to build a winner...don't say go sign big name free agents b/c you lose all credibility right then and there...this is the only way that they can accumulate as much talent as possible...sure some will bust, but some of them could be great...these guys are doing it the right way...they are dipping their toes in as many talent pools as they can, internationally and domestically to infuse our pathetically abandoned farm system bereft of any legitimate talent...Cutch is the best prospect to come to Pittsburgh since who Benson, maybe Kendall before that...think about...how excited were you to hear about this guy for 4 years and for him to come up and blossom like he has...now imagine this, and I know it's difficult...but imagine in a couple of years waves and waves of talented youngsters coming up to play ball for you PBC...not washed up veterans...i don't know about you but after what we've been through in the last 17 years what else do we have to lose...if you have a better idea that the current course of action I would love to hear it

(Did you bother to read the post or did you just look at the headline. I wrote:

``Loyal fans are going to be enraged by this, and while they certainly have that right, it’s entirely possible that selling off the best -- and highest-priced -- talent is the best strategy to produce a championship-caliber team in Pittsburgh.''

@ Bazzini,

Its Cool. Yes Detroit has done good by them but, Detroit has 8-10 million people. Pitt has 250,000. The PBC will NEVER be able to spend the money that Detroit has/can. Someday, I hope it comes back to bite the NYY that they have neglected their minor leagues.

@ stu,

your right about getting talent from every pool possible. IMO, thats the way to go, and hopefully the PBC will be rich with talent in a few yrs. Kinda like the Brewers and Marlins and Tampa, etc.

BTW, finally got my baby girl (Izzie) as my avatar. Ain't she BEAUTIFUL!!!!

8-10 million people in Detroit!

Come on!

2008 stats showed there was 837,000 in Detroit, and about 300,000 in Pittsburgh.

You can bet it's gone down plenty in Detroit in the past 6 months with economic problems there.

It takes a "real" owner, and the Pirates don't have one.

The excuses are old and tattered.

If Nutting wasn't making money, he would've been outta here several years ago.

If you can't run a MLB team "at least" on the lines of Detroit or Milwaukee salary wise....You need to get out of the business.

Nutting needs to sell the team to a real owner....it's that simple.

BFGrad

I understand where you're coming from and also am frustrated with the Bucs. But looking at your batting order, the starting lineup is basically the same as the one before the Bay, Nady trade last year except we have McCutchen instead of Nady.

Not a team that would lose 100 games, but not one that would be a serious contender. And you have no third baseman.

I hate too hate the way the Nuttings have run things. But I do believe that many Pirate fans overrate some of the players we have,

I figured a couple of Pirate apologists would take issue with what a quality roster for 50M would look like.

First, let's talk about last year. The pitching was horrendous - the worst or nearly the worst in all of MLB. Freddy Sanchez was a shell of himself after being forced into the line up despite a shoulder and later an eye injury. Jack Wilson missed about 2 months of the season with a severe calf injury. John Russell has to play Luis Rivas, who had all of 10 games experience there, and Brian Bixler, at SS. THAT's why they lost, poor pitching and defense. I give Huntington credit for going a long way toward fixing the pitching with the Nady trade as well as hiring Joe Kerrigan.

Second, it would probably have taken about 2M extra/yr to sign Bay. If you figure 1M raises for both Wilson and Sanchez, the payroll might have "ballooned" to the 55-58M range - still among the lowest in MLB.

Third, McLouth never said he would only play CF. In fact, IIRC, McLouth played all 3 outfield positions before he became a full time starter. McLouth is the kind of kid who would eat his spikes if the manager told him that would help win a ball game.

The way to rebuild is to do it through the draft, free agent and minor league free agent signings while still keeping the parent club competitive until the prospects are ready to replace some of the older, established more expensive starters. The path Huntington is on now assures that he will have to rush his best prospects to the majors before they are ready - a sure formula for failure.

@ Bazzini,

When i say/said Detroit, i meant the metro area, which is approx. 4.4M. Yea, i was still way off! They have alot more than Pitt area. Pitt has approx. 334,000 in the city and 800,00-1M in surrounding areas. The point is: Pittsburgh is small market, Detroit is medium to large. Pitt just doesn't have the resources that Detroit has. It doesn't really matter becoz of the economic crisis right now, e-one is poor. The PBC is just poorer than most

Well guys, gotta go. It has been great talkin to yinz. Hope to see yinz in the future.

Later Bob, keep on keepin on.

Have a great weekend e-one.

Love the T-Shirt:

"The beatings will continue until moral improves"

The losing will continue until the NUTTING is removed, period, end of story.  

The MAN owns 39 rust belt newspapers and a Ski Resort and the Pirates.... the MLB welfare system is paying his ink suppliers.  HE IS BROKE, let me repeat HE IS BROKE people.  The payroll will be less < $20M next year and he is going to be forced to sell sooner (the more owner/MLB/press/Smizik/fan pressure the better) or later (ego/pride/shellgames/auditors/creditors keep him afloat).

NOTHING for NUTTING

BFGrad----I totally agree with your analysis.

I felt last year was a turning poing for the Pirates.

There was a "slight" resemlbance to a MLB team.

Just because they were losing (though BFGrad brings up good points as to why), you don't toss the whole thing out the door.

Nady was the odd man out in the OF, so it made sense to trade him.

I'm not as "thrilled" about the trade as some are (you got a 500 pitcher at best and a kid in Altoona that needs to grow up)....along with Karstens.

But after trading Nady, they should've have kept Bay and resigned him.

I don't wanna hear about him not being resignable!

When he was traded we had a year and a half to work out a good deal.

He was shipped off to Boston for four "very bad" prospects.

This trade is already shaping up to be a real killer with Bryan Morris floundering in A ball, Craig Hansen sitting somewhere with a season long nerve problem, Brandon Moss an apparent utility OF, and Andy LaRoche an apparent utility IF.

If you keep McLouth (which was an unspeakable move) you have a starting OF of Bay, McCutcheon & McLouth......with Morgan as a pesky extra OF.

Suddenly....It looks like a MLB team with Wilson & Sanchez up the middle.

Then you start working on the other pieces through more tradable players like LaRoche (who just might be hitting alot better with the other people mentioned in the lineup)....and you also bite the bullet and try to sign a FA or two that aren't over 35 (like they have in the past).

You work "hard" on the draft, international players, etc.....Continually trying to upgrade your base while your MLB team "at least" has a fighting chance.

You don't have to trade McLouth to make room for McCutcheon!

These kind of moves are absurd.

That's a brief description of how a "new plan" would work for the Pirates...but again BFGrad is definitely talking sense.

Daquido, that would not have solved the pitching problem, but I am hearing you on the field players.  Exactly right.  The Pirates have lowballed payroll for so long that there should be enough built up in the bank to sign a guy like Bay IF he actually wanted to stay.    Tired of hearing how they weren't winning with Bay-Wilson-Sanchez anyway so why not trade them.  Why not ADD to them?

Regardless, none of this matters.  Here is the secret.  PNC Park (remember the Park that the Pirates absolutely needed to have so that they could become "competitive" salary wise?) gets paid for by the owners with an amount of money that is amortized over 30 years.  The debt servicing of PNC is one of the costs cited by ownership as to why they cannot jack upu payroll.  Think Ramirez trade.  The lifespan of a new stadium these days?  About 30-40 years.  That means that right about the time that the debt servicing is done, it will be time to beg for a new ballpark.  Then we go right back to the line "we can't afford to pay high salaries because of the debt service on the new ballpark" .  

Pitbulz,

Pllease don't understate the Pirates market any more.  We are small, no denying it, but we are 2x as big as you think.  The MSA for Pittsburgh is 2.4 million, while Detroit's is 2M more at 4,4 million.   What business has ever succeeded by cutting costs to the bone and then trying to compete?  Customers want a viable product.  How many of you defending the team buy season tickets?  Until you have to show up game after game and watch our guys getting their tails beat, don't be so easy to accept losing even 90 games much less 110.

I agree the Pirates need could use a new owner willing to spend the money to add to a solid core group of players.

And I agree with BFG's idea of rebuilding while keeping a competitive parent club intact.

The problems are we are stuck with this owner and when was the last time the team was competitive? Reverting back to last year's lineup and adding the only true minor league prospect makes no sense to me. Yeah, they could flirt with .500, but so what.

They would still have no depth in the minor leagues so the next time Wilson, Sanchez or Doumit get hurt, we totally suck again. Oh yeah, I forgot, Sanchez is hurt now and Doumit finally returns tonight until he is hurt again.

Why does "somewhat" sticking with the product mean no depth in the minor league??

As mentioned, one continues to work on all facets of the minor league system/draft, international talent, etc.

Somehow the Pirate FO has convinced a certain percentage of people that you can't walk and chew gum!

Pitching was definitely an issue to be addressed from last year.

The funny thing is that they have yet to tear up that pitching staff, other than adding a couple minor pieces.

I just can't stress enough that you don't have to blow up potential in order to tend to other organizational departments.

The bottom line is Nutting has to go.

It's really past the point of figuring out what moves the Pirates "should have" made....It's to the point where we have to figure out how to oust Nutting.

I guess I'm drinking gallons of Kool-aid too....because anyone who believes that, short of Jason Bay, ANYBODY on this team for the past two years would be ANYTHING more than a spare part on a championship club is sorely mistaken. Yeah, Jack Wilson is a decent shortstop...but with no pop. Yeah, Freddy is a good player and community guy....but with no pop and limited range. Grabow is an above-average left-specialist. Maholm....for all the hope....has been around long enough for anyone to realize that he's a #3 pitcher in a good rotation (nothing more). Dukes a #4....and so far the other three are grappling to fall into a #4 or #5. None of the starting pitching is elite.

    And forget about getting elite prospects for Wilson, Freddy, Laroche, Capps, Maholm.....no one is an impact player, difference-maker. We diehards still follow and want to see them win....but just because we see a commercial with Jack making a great play or a power swing....this is just marketing, folks. I like Jack, but this isn't Derek Jeter....please don't *** and moan when we don't David Price or Tommy Hanson straight-up for hiim!

    There's no way of telling how these prospects will work out. But if you want to get mad...get mad at the old regimes. I'm still haunted by Jim Tracy proudly proclaiming that Jose Hernandez was "the best 24th guy" in all of baseball....what an asinine comment that summarized the strategy of the entire organization...ass-backwards.

    The only way to do this is to stip it bare and start over again - it may or may not work....but its the only way.

IIRC, when the money was awarded to build PNC Park, we were promised that we'd put a winner in there.

100 losses later, they RAISED ticket prices and started limiting what you could bring.

THEN...we get awarded an All-Star game, which did boost the attendence that season, and now we're back down near the bottom of the MLB, where it should be since the performance on the field is not there.

I keep hearing of this "plan".  If you mean building the farm system and crossing your fingers that 1/10 of these guys turn into ML prospects, then sure, you have a plan in place.

The FACT is that when the Pirates payroll is around $50M, and teams like Chicago, St. Louis and Milwaukee (just to name some in the NL Central) are 20-50M MORE, they can simply plug holes that they have when they are in contention.  

The FACT is this ballclub needs to use their heads when giving out contracts, because now we are having a hard time moving Sanchez, Jack Wilson and Adam LaRouche because of their figures and performance (except in the case of Sanchez).  

Reminds me of a quote from Mortal Kombat: "Hoping against hope, such an endearing trait; I'm touched".

The Pirates have a 0% chance of contending for the playoffs or the World Series in the next 5 years, count on it.

And for prediction's sake for 2010:  58-104

I find it so funny that some people choose to say that the "real" fans will leave until a winner is put onto the field.  Ummmm, those are called "fair weather" fans and are WORSE than the bobblehead crowd (at least the bobblehead/fireworks/concert crowds don't pretend to be more than they are.)

Some choose to act like winning a few extra games now is much more important that sustaining a very good team for many years in the future.

I find it sooo funny that people put the Penguins in the same category as the Steelers and somehow better than the management of the Pirates.  What amazing short-term memory loss some people seem to have (I guess 2 runs at the Stanley Cup will do that).  People wanted Mario's head just a few years ago, with a half-empty arena and, oh no, you must build a new arena or the Penguins can't be competitive.

Most Pittsburgh sports fans come out for whoever is winning at the moment (evidenced by all of these "long-term" fans who came out of the woodworks during the Super Bowl and Stanley Cup.)

I, for one, say, do everything in your power to make this Pirates team a recurring contender at some point in the future, even if it means blow up the team now.  I'll be out there at PNC Park (I actually enjoyed being at Three Rivers during those last few years when only a few thousand would show up.  Most of them were knowledgable baseball fans...It always amazes me how small the cheers are for the Pirates best players, namely Jason Bay.  The PNC Park fans only gave him a slightly louder cheer than someone coming off of the bench (until maybe his last year here).

Who was yelling for Lemieux's head?  You can't compare hockey to baseball, hockey has a salary cap.   As to the fairweather fan comment, I am baffled that you are suggesting that Pirate fans attend games in droves to fill the pockets of an owner who takes the profits from the team elsewhere, and puts AA and AAA talent on the field.

The Pirates set an attendance record at PNC Park the very first year it was open.  What did the ownership do to reward that attendance?  They raised prices and told people that they couldn't bring water bottles into the park.  This after people turned out in record numbers for a 62-100 team.

And you call those who did not return from being screwed "fairweather"?    I call them savvy consumers.  As to the bandwagon effect of winning teams drawing bigger crowds, that isn't just Pittsburgh.  That's everywhere.

Retired#21, you are right, and don't let those with their noses up the behinds of Pirate management make you feel the least bit guilty. We are being sold a chimera, a constant hope for diamonds in the future if we will only pay now for crap on the field. It is a sucker's game, and true baseballl fans should recognize it is an endless cycle of broken promises.

It is interesting that Coonelly made the comment in the difference in revenue between the Pirates and Brewers due to having lower attendance.  What does he expect next year when he puts a Triple A team on the field?  I hope the attendance dips to $1,000,000 next year.

I think you are wrong. Sanchez is statistically speaking the second best hitting second baseman in the NL.  He could be the starter anywhere besides Philly(Utley).

No disrespect PitBullz, put down the hippie lettuce and join us on planet Earth.

Alvarez and Tabata are FIVE years away from seeing the big leagues. Remember we don't promote on performance, we promote on not starting that years of sevice clock , that is the Pirate mission statement. Because we need to know we control their rights until 2016. Turn to page one of your program to see the control costs and profits section.

Nutting should be forced to rebate to the taxpayers the difference of what the real value of this pathetic club is without PNC Park. He should not get the inflated price in a sale that was created on the backs of the tax paying public.

@Retire   Um, so YOU and others are savvy consumers because you don't want to spend money on the Pirates when they are doing poorly, but Bob Nutting is no good because he doesn't want to spend HIS money on a team right now that has no chance of winning in a league that has no salary cap....I get it.....

I apologize for supporting the Pirates through both good and bad, I thought I did it because I love baseball and I love the Pirates.  Seems I'm being a total fool.  Maybe I should go away until then win a pennant so I can feel I'm getting my money's worth....Actually I'm still going to go.  But when you and all of the other real fans come to PNC Park when they start winning again, please just don't get up every 5 minutes to get nachos and stuff (at least have the courtesy to do it BETWEEN innings) because US gullible people will be trying to watch the game.

As for the Penguins, when they dismantled the team a few years back, I seem to recall quite a few people saying Mario should sell the team if he isn't going to be able to put a quality team on the ice.  Have you looked at the price of Penguin tickets lately.  Boy they definitely reward their fans.

It's amazing that Neal Huntington and Frank Coonelly are actually being paid (and paid well) to dismantle this team;

while the fans who are actually PAYING to see the Pirates not only have NO INPUT AT ALL, but are also being verbally deceived by those who ostensibly are looking out for their best interest.

Frankly (no pun intended), it makes me angry!

I fully support these moves.

But I also realize their not likely to happen.

I'm betting Wilson will play out this year and resign.  His hitting and defensive skills are just flat out not good enough for any team to give up much for him.

Sanchez could leave via free agency, but considering the current payroll being rather low even for the Pirates I wouldn't be surprised if he returns as well.  Sanchez could fetch some low-mid level prospects but your not gonna get much for a high average low power second baseman that does not steal bases.

Defense is the rule for middle infielders.  Your only going to see major trades for middle infielders that bring some kind of offensive talent to the table that elevates them over what any team has now or can grab elsewhere.  The team with the most value for Sanchez or Wilson is, believe it or not, the Pirates.  Our severe lack of middle infielders throughout the system, and that both are a veteren presence on a young team make them probable signings.  They'll be shopped, but I really doubt they'll find much for them.

Laroche may be gone, but we'll have to wait and see.

Implied, you are taking this personally and it is not meant to be personal.  I don't think that you are a fool for going to Pirate games.  I get the "bad baseball is better than no baseball" feelings.   My point is that I don't think that you are a fairweather fan just because you choose to not give your money to an owner who can't be trusted with it.  If the Pirates draw close to 3 million fans next year, do you think the owner will actually pursue talented players? Or sign the talented ones he has?  If you say yes to that, then that is your belief and that is cool. Me, I don't go on belief, I go on tract records.  I see nothing in the Nutting family track record that leads me to believe that they will spend the money to field a major league product.  Again, record attendance in the first year at PNC Park.  And that attendance translated into what?  Excellent attendance the year of the All Star Game.  What happened to the product on the field the following season?

I don't believe that the Pirates should spend $70 million on bad players.  But I do believe that if they spend $25 million on a 100 loss team  next year, that it stands to reason that they should then have around $50 million laying around in the bank the next year to keep the talent that they do have, and add to it with at least one additional player per year who can pitch, catch, throw and or hit a baseball.   If that makes me arrogant, then I'm cool with that.

...and please note that the Penguins raised ticket prices AFTER they began winning, not after a 100 loss season.  Remember that?  Boy, the Pirates management really knows how to reward THEIR fans.

@retired  I understand and appreciate your viewpoint, as well.  I  guess my points are:  attendance has very little to do with the team profitability.  Many people throughout this and the PBC blog (not you specifically) think that staying away from the games is going to send a strong message to ownership and they'll suddenly drastically increase payroll.  For those that believe ownership is only out to make money, why would they??  If attendance drops, then payroll would just drop, too not go up.   So by virtue of that, people are implying I'm just feeding the Nutting greed by attending games.  I attend games because I enjoy them.  I do believe that most owners want to win, but are also good businessmen(women).  Throwing lots of money at a bad situation won't solve the problems.  I do believe that when the young hitters (Tabata, Alvarez, Hernandez, etc.) mature, the management will go out and spend the money to get some pitching and a bench.  I hate to crucify the management by assuming they're NOT going to do something that they haven't had a chance to prove yet .   I'm assuming people who feel that way, are also not going to give Milledge the benefit of the doubt before he even appears in one game.  I'm of the belief that New York was too high profile for him too soon and the Nationals (being in even worse shape than the Pirates) tried to force him to do things that he may not be suited for (CF, leadoff, etc.)...sounds a lot like the Pirates with Chris Duffy...hmmmm, alter his swing, mess with his mind and he loses it....

Oh well, I'm sorry I keep bringing up the Penguins (I realize the 2 situations are completely dissimilar), but the main point I was trying to make (although not as well as I'd like) is that the Penguins were a complete mess just a few years ago.  Issues with payroll, threats to move the team and all of that, but they make 2 runs at the Cup and all of those things are forgotten.  I think the same is true for the Pirates.  The winning in the early 90's pushed aside the mess of the 80's (namely the drug trails and the near moving of the team).  If they start winning big in 2012 (or whenever) people will forget the nearly 2 decades of losing.  Pittsburgh fans (like in other cities) love their winners.  

Hi bob: Really great analysis.  i can't read 113 comments so not sure if someone else brought up this related point - it would be interesting to learn how much Pirate revenue supports Nutting's newspaper franchises.  I'm convinced more and more each day that the only way to turn the franchise around is to have an owner willing to spend the money on players - salary cap or not.  It would be nice if sports reporter did some investigating to find out.  It would illuminate how much commitment Nutting really has in building a winning and therefore more expensive franchise.

At some point very soon the Pirates will only be able to garner major league prospects by trading their current major league prospects (Tabata, Alverez and McCutchen.)  Wilson and Sanchez and LaRouche etc... will get you prospects but given their current production/value, I expect not much more "upside" than what is currently in the farm system.

Marnie in NYC.

Impliedi, I hear you and I see what you are getting at.  I question your comment that attendance has little to do with profitability.  Maybe you misstated that.  Can you further explain?  Would seem to me that attendance and profitability go hand in hand.

In regards to the Penguins comparisons.  I'll put it this way:  The Penguins had the top pick in the draft and selected Crosby, knowing that his second contract was going to cost them huge money.  They had the second overall pick and chose Malkin, knowing that his second contract was also going to cost them huge money.  Fleury was a # 1 overall pick and Staal was a # 4 I think.  Pens knew that drafting those types of players was going to cost them huge $$$ when it came time for the second contract, yet they drafted all of them and paid the $$$ to keep them.

Pirates had the top pick and took Brian Bullington, immediately projecting him as a # 4 starter.  Those do not cost you much  money.  Two years ago they passed on Wieters and took Moskos because they did not want to buck up to pay Wieters.  This year, same with Sanchez in the draft, they knew he wasn't going to cost them much $$$.  Give them credti for Alvarez, granted, and they paid up for him.  Will they pay up for Sano?  Remains to be seen, but I doubt it.   So if you compare the two, if the Penguins were like the Pirates they'd have skipped Crosby and taken a 4th line center with the # 1 overall pick or a defenseman they projected as a 5th or 6th defender.  But they didn't, they chose the best talent knowing it would cost them $$$, and then spent it to keep it.