PSU plays Rutgers but not Pitt

Bob, you and I part ways on this one.

Frankly, your arguments don't hold water.  Let's look:

1. You contend that the Pitt-PSU gig was once the most significant rivalry of these 2 schools.  Indeed it was.  But it's now going on 30 years ancient history.  If anything should be dropped, it's the chronic 'Burgher contention that Penn State should in anyway help Pitt to feather it's normally near empty Heinz Field nest.  Simply NO reason to come to Pgh beyond the chance to eat a Primanti sandwich.

2. Or maybe appeasing the local Penn Staters, saving a Friday/Saturday trek to Happy Valley.  But why deprive them of something they love to do.  If you want to play the nostalgia card, here's one that trumps the old Lions-Panther rivalry of 30 or 40 years back.  Come home, Lion lovers, come home.  And they do.  In droves.

3. Also, as we're seeing, beyond those occasional monster studs that Tom Bradley absconds from W.PA ...Lee, A.J., Paul P., and a few others, this area is no longer a hotbed for Penn State recruiting.  The ones with really great potential get that they'd prefer playing to 110K crowds and get that Penn State is the only possibility of that absent going out of state.  So there is little or no upside for recruiting.

4. Joe can be mad, if you think he still is.  And it's a comforting argument for Pitt fans who need a villain.  The only problem is he literally holds ALL the cards in this one. He's even said to Pitt, "take the bulk of the WPIAL" because he knows there are not sufficient #s anymore to make it to the big dance with this being the or even "a" central locale for recruiting.  That's a major flaw in Pitt's scheme, but it's all they can muster right now.

5. Conversely, NJ has been for many seasons, and remains a key focus for Penn State recruiting and now for Penn State alumni presence.  Way, way more PSU grads on the East Coast than here.  So for future and past Nittany Lions, NJ makes way more sense than Pittsburgh.  It's not even a contest any longer.

6. But in the end, it really boils down to one thing already mentioned.  Pitt has absolutely no leverage, no advantage, no call for Penn State.  In the absence of something like maybe a 7home 3 Pgh longer term arrangement.

7.  And lastly, let's face it, within a very few short years the bulk of anyones among us who once cared about this issue will be either dead or senile.  Penn State alumni under 50 think this discussion is antiquated and ridiculous.  Their U. has moved on, big time.  

8. And at least this year, there's even a certain irony in basketball ...PSU went to the "home of Big East basketball", that place that D. Gavitt and successor Mike proclaimed the center of the basketball universe, and won a post-season tournament.  Something Pitt has never done.  

Yea, this is painful for local Pitt lovers. History can be cruel.  But Pitt shot itself in the foot, killed this golden goose decades ago.  And it'll never be back.  No reason for it to be back, not even when Joe departs.  Why would a new coach hit a comatose mongrel dog?  Simply won't do it.  Kiss this goodbye, imo.

P.S. You get credit though on this, Bob.  Let's call it your "Easter Issue," i.e. that topic that has potential to bring the  dead back to life in lieu of the lull of our Bucs.  

And it's seasonally timely!  Me likey!

Bob:

Sorry, but Whistle Pig has this one right.

Thirty years ago, Pitt had the leverage and used it - - to Penn State's detriment.  Or at least to thwart Penn State's preferences.

Now things are different.  Pitt would prefer to have Penn State play them in football under terms that are favorable to Pitt - - the kind of terms Pitt might accede to with a school of equal or lesser stature in football.  The simple fact is that Penn State is on a higher plane of college football than is Pitt and has been for about the last thirty years.

Pitt made a choice then.  Choices have consequences.  That is reality...

Hey Bob ... One more I really must ask:

The JoePa foto ... was that specifically selected for this piece?

And here I thought this was a PG-13, family friendly blog!  

Bob as a Pitt fan I can't agree with your opinion that joining the Big East was better for Pitt in the long run. In terms of joining the Big East, pitt "won" in basketball but not in football. Football is in most cases the sport that generates the highest revenue for the Division I programs, and right now the Big East football is still in it's early stages after the ACC departures. I do not know how it will turn out for Big East football, but I would rather see Pitt in a conference with established schools Penn State, Syracuse, Boston, etc.

Whistle Pig: Congratulations, you're basketball team was 66th best this year. Maybe they'll schedule better nonconference games like Pitt in the future and build their bball program.

Joe Paterno is beyond arrogant and selfish. And I am a PSU fan with three students past and present. He thinks he's like a factory owner who built something with his own money and wants to keep the stock in the family. He does NOT own PSU football. It's disgusting to see him hang on like this and not move on. What if Rip Engle had said he was going to stay until they pried the keys out of his cold, dead fingers? How would Joe have liked that? Pitt-PSU was and could be the greatest rivalry in the East again but Mr. Arrogance just won't allow it. I guess I show my age but I miss the rivalry. The game is bigger than the coaches. Or not, I guess.

There were two decisions made that have put the Pitt-PSU rivalry where it is now, in addition to the grudge that JoePa holds over the Eastern conference idea:

The first was Penn State's decision to join the Big 10, and more to the point, take the big money over keeping its rivalries.  Penn State has no rivals any more, and it is a shame.  As a PSU fan, I would much rather them play in the Big East because (1) it would be much easier and they would go the BCS pretty much every year and (2) it would be great to see them play all of the Eastern rivals on a consistent basis.  Unfortunately, they chose the big $$$ over one of the great things about college football...the rivalries.

The second was Pitt's decision to choose being a basketball school over football.   Pitt is in better shape as a basketball school than PSU, but  the revenue in basketball is significantly less than in football.  Football is KING in college sports.  I would estimate that PSU gets as much revenue in 2 home football games than Pitt gets in an ENTIRE season of football AND basketball combined, and that's not including the Big 10 revenue sharing for the bowls (and don't forget that the Big 10 historically has received two BCS bids on a consistent basis.) On the other hand, Pitt has played in exactly ONE January bowl in the last 25 years and has never been a serious threat to be a national power in that time.  

But things could be changed, and even though I root for PSU, I know that if JoePa wanted it done, it would be done.  Hopefully they will play again when he retires in 30 years.

And by the way, PSU finished in the "Others Receiving Votes" in basketball this year in the final poll-33rd to be exact- so to say they are #66 for winning the NIT is not true.  I'm not saying that winning the NIT is important as a run in the NCAAs but to say that they are not as good as teams like Robert Morris, Radford, etc., is a ridiculous statement.  

Whistle Pig, I disagree strongly with the statement that most people that care about this rivalry will be senile will soon "be either dead or senile."  I'm 25, and I know a lot of Pitt and Penn State fans that do not like the others' respective schools and would love to see them play football again.

You can rag on Pitt for not filling Heinz Field every game, but not everyone in Pittsburgh is a Pitt alum, and there are a lot more things to do on Saturday in an urban area like Pittsburgh than in the middle of nowhere.  Yes, they could and should have more fans, but that will only come with continued success and bowl appearances.  Even so, Pitt is still a major college program playing in a BCS conference, and anything less than an equal amount of home games with Penn State should be out of the question.  Pitt isn't like Temple or any of the other non-conference opponents PSU has this year (they have Highlands and DeVry, right?).  Settling for an uneven amount of home games just to bring PSU back would be a bigger embarassment than any loss to Bowling Green or Ohio.

Penn State can brag about their stadium, their fans, their alleged recruiting dominance (how'd that Terrelle Pryor thing work out?), and whatever else they want to claim.  But until the two schools meet on the field again, Pitt will always have 12-0.

Don’t underestimate the determination of a cranky old man.  That is what I’ve learned about a certain elderly leader in the spotlight these days; do not underestimate him.

Whether it is to hold a grudge, deny the truth about himself, ignore what the people really want this November, or to fight to the end.

After losing a stirring contest in 2000, he wobbled for several years and then almost miraculously has risen to the top again.  Meanwhile, we’ve had 8 years many folks would like to forget.

Of course it’s obvious I’m talking about Joe Paterno and the 8 years without one of the great college football rivalries of the 20th century, Pitt-Penn State.  Notice I didn’t say 21st century, because this “can’t miss” game between tradition-rich cross-state rivals was ended in 2000… by a cranky old man who most certainly carries a grudge.

Once upon a time in the 80s, Ronald Reagan was in his first term, Dallas was TV’s #1 rated show, and then-A.D. Joe Paterno was continuing his mission to try to form an “Eastern” sports conference to unite the so-called “Eastern Independents” in football (and all sports), and secure some basketball revenue for his Nittany Lion hoops team.  His dream conference would consist of Penn State, Syracuse, Boston College, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, West Virginia and Temple.  The Big East and ESPN were each just a few years old but Big East basketball with its teams located in most the major northeast TV markets was a ratings smash and a new eastern sports landscape was forming (and Paterno’s dream was about to be permanently shattered).  

After his earlier “all-sports conference” attempts failed, JoePa officially applied for PSU’s membership in the Big East before the 1982 season.  In a 5-3 vote, Penn State (located in State College, PA: 1980 pop. 112K), was denied membership (by one vote), to  the basketball-focused, TV market-based Big East Conference.  Archrival Pitt was then immediately invited by the Big East to apply for membership (to join Syracuse, Providence, St. Johns, Georgetown, Boston College, Connecticut, Seton Hall and Villanova there), and voila, “the grudge” and the long era of grumpiness began.

Joseph Vincent Paterno was a spry young 72 year old when he chose to permanently end the “Pennsylvania Classic”, which was played 96 times from 1893-2000 (often on Thanksgiving weekend), was almost always sold out and was typically the featured game on TV.  Alabama-Auburn, USC-UCLA, Pitt-Penn St. - the words just flow together, don’t they?  For me, they bring back memories of Autumns past and backyard football during half-time. They also remind me of the tough choices parents have to make when they have a “mixed” family; “Mom, how can you root for State and that Blackledge guy when Danny Marino and your baby boy go to Pitt?  You love your Happy Valley kids more, don’t you?”

But those arguments in PA living rooms don’t happen anymore because they don’t play anymore.  I’ve heard all the propaganda about the Big Ten schedule already being too tough and my favorite line, “Penn State needs 7 home games every year to support the non-revenue producing sports.”  Excuse me, isn’t that true at every school?  And doesn’t PSU get a big fat check from the Big Ten for hoops every year now whether they’re any good or not?

I’ve also heard about JoePa’s “offer” to play 2 games at Beaver Stadium for every 1 game at Pitt; how do you think that would go over if Bobby Bowden offered that deal to the Gators?  And Florida-Florida St. has only been played for half a century, not since 1896 (which is the year of the first Pitt-Penn St. game, not the year of St. Joe’s birth by-the-way).  Even when college schedules expanded from 11 to 12 regular season games in 2006 making it easy for PSU to keep their “7 home games” and resume the rivalry, St. Joe (with grudge still firmly in place), claimed Penn State still couldn’t make it work.  Now he's playing home & home with Rutgers from the Big East but still won't play a game every PA fan would watch???

So, a game that 99.9% of Pennsylvania football fans (along with millions more around the country), want to see every year is not played because one grumpy, cranky old man is still mad about a snub 30-odd years ago - now that is holding a grudge on an Israeli-PLO level.

Pennsylvania State Senator John N. Wozniak, a Democrat from Johnstown, wants Pitt and Penn State to resume their football rivalry and is pressing the heads of both universities to make it happen (there is precedent as government officials in Kentucky once stepped in to ensure UK and Louisville played each other in hoops).  Unable to get the GOM (Grumpy Old Man), to speak with him directly, he had conversations with Pitt chancellor Mark A. Nordenberg and Scott Paterno (the son of unavailable Penn State coach Joe Paterno), and they all agreed the series should be resumed.   Of course since Joe wasn’t directly involved, nothing became of it, “the grudge” still rules the day and the cranky old man keeps his status quo - fans be damned.  

With both teams back in the rankings right now, wouldn’t this be a great Thanksgiving weekend game for all to see?   I guess .1% of Pennsylvania’s football world is still waking up grumpy everyday and obviously doesn’t think so.

I’ll give Joe this though; I think it takes real determination for a man in his 50s to hold onto anything for 25 years.

Pitt-Penn St. Rivalry Facts

1st Meeting: November 6, 1893

Last Meeting: September 16, 2000

Final Score of Last Meeting: Pitt 12 – PSU 0

Number of Meetings: 96

All-Time Series: PSU: 50-42-4

Current Streak PITT: Won 1

Longest PITT Win Streak: 14 (1922-1938)

Longest PSU Win Streak: 10 (1966-1975)

Mr. Brownstone,

Two quick points and I will go back to my cave.  First, the notion that Pitt can't attract fans because there is simply too much to do in Pittsburgh on a Saturday might be one that could be taken seriously if 65,000 people did not show up for Steelers games (in the very same venue) on SUNDAY!

Second, I find it funny that you picked Terrelle Pryor as the recruit that PSU lost.  I forget, did he choose Pitt over PSU?  Nope.  Only academic charity cases "choose" Pitt over PSU (even if I wish Morelli had).  Pitt gets PSU leftovers because - whether in a cow field or not - most athletes would rather play in front of 110,000 fans in games that matter, instead of 25,000 fans in games that don't.

Finally, I'm glad Paterno holds this grudge.  Though I'd love to see a PSU game in Pittsburgh, the fact is that Pitt brings nothing to the table.  The games are already on tv here and it's pretty easy for a Pittsburgher to get to State College.  Rutgers gets us into a larger, less established PSU market.  It's a no brainer; I can see why Pitt fans have a hard time understanding.

This is just a relationship gone bad. Pitt left Penn State standing at the alter 30 years ago, and State still bears that wound. Sure, they lived with each other for another 15 years or so, but in the end, their differences can not be resolved, and the engagement ended. Pitt, now happily happily married to a new partner, still would like to remain in touch and feels bad about how things turned out. Penn State, after being burned, found solace in the comfort of 10 BIG other partners, and began binding agreement therein.

As a 30 year old PSU fan, I personally would love to see these 2 play again. Bob has a really good point that, if PSU can agree to play Rutgers on a home-and-home, it could have done that with Pitt too. I am hoping that once Joe retires that they'll find a way to play either on the first game of the year or last game of the year.  In fairness to Joe, his conference could really have been the best of both worlds for both teams. I think part of the reason not everyone wanted join PSU in that conference was Joe didn't want to share football revenue, but wanted everyone to share all other sports revenue. Regardless, the % of sharing could be negotiated. It's too bad because I'd rather see Pitt, WVU, Boston Coll, Syracuse, Notre Dame, etc. on the schedule than Michigan, Northwestern, or Purdue. Hopefully I'll get to see the day that it is renewed again, but I think everyone knows it won't happen until Joe goes.

@SteelCity - How can you call it "disgusting to see him hang on like this" when all he's done is compete for National Title in 2 of the past 4 years? You can believe he should step down, but I would hardly call the team's performance the past few years disgusting.

Wow!  Nothing brings out the bloggers (very similar to talk show callers) like dusting off the old Pitt - Penn State football war horse.  Actually, this is more a "dead horse" that everyone continues to beat when a vacuum needs to be filled.

It is kind of fun to watch, though.  I can't wait to see which school's blogger fans will be the first to accuse the other school's fans that their collective mothers wear combat boots!!

It is nice to see that Robert Morris and Duquesne have risen above such things and now schecule each other in football each year and on a home-and-home basis no less!!

I agree with SteelCity about JoePa's arrogance. I think that same arrogance has filtered down to his many "disciples" like WhistlePig and JackFinarelli who seems to think that PITT football is no longer relevent. If so, what does that make PSU basketball? With all of the changes in the last 15 -20 years regarding conference realignments, it's hard to say whether the proposed Eastern Sports Conference would've ever really taken hold and/or stayed together anyway, so that is now a moot point. Get over it! It sounds to me like you're still holding a grudge, along with God, er, I mean JoePa. And since when are the 1990's "going on 30 years ancient history"?!! Another question for WhislePig: If, at the age of 47, I'm "just a few short years from being dead or senile", what does that make Mr. Paterno? Whether you want to admit it or not, there are still a lot of college football fans that would like to see the rivalry renewed. Maybe it's not a coincidence that PSU's recruiting in western PA has dropped significantly since the rivalry was ended. I don't think that the NY/NJ area is a stronger source of football talent than the WPIAL as WhistlePig seems to believe. That's just a slap in the face not only to PITT and WVU, but also OSU and Michigan who all do a lot of recruiting in the area, not to mention all the coaches and players coming out of the local schools. Just more PSU arrogance. If the player and alumni base is so small in the Pittsburgh area compared to the east coast, then maybe the Post-Gazette should just stop covering PSU sports because apparantly there's nobody around here who cares anymore anyway! JackFinarelli seems to think that playing a home and home series is "favorable to PITT" (since when is balanced scheduling considered favorable to one of the teams?) and that PSU "is on a higher plane than PITT for the last 30 years". All I know is that PITT beat Penn State 12 -0 the last time they played, and until JoePa, or anyone else in happy valley agrees to come down off of their high horse and play again, PITT is, and will always be the reigning champion of a once great rivalry!! And that's not arrogance, that's just a fact. HAIL TO PITT!!!!

Note to State Penn fans:  You did not have a better year than Pitt in Basketball!!  Please get a frickin' clue!!

Also, State Penn chose not to play Pitt in football and men's basketball!  Think your better than Pitt?  Then prove it by playing them, not by running your yaps on blogs & message boards.  

Additionally, yes State Penn has a beautiful campus and a big stadium that they pack for evey home game, whether it's OSU or Temple.  However, when the only other things to do on campus are cow tipping and fist fights, is it really all that surprising!

Finally, in case you haven't noticed, we have another football team in town.  You may have heard of them, they call themselves the STEELERS and they're the best franchise in the history of sports!!  So, please spare me the "Pitt doesn't sell out all of their home games" argument. Pitt has to compete against the Steelers, Penguins and Pirates for fans.  Penn State has to compete against...well, let me think here a minute.... oh yeah, cow tipping and fist fights.

Hail To Pitt

Superb commentary, Bob.     Well stated.     The old fossil Paterno will go to his grave, kicking and screaming about Pitt and how they ruined his beatoff Eastern sports conference.      Paterno, and only Paterno, personally RUINED one of THE oldest football rivalries in all of college football.  A shame, and a absolute disgrace.   He  can't coach forever, and won't live forever, so when he finally passes on, someone with some sense & integrity will step in and restore this classic rivalry.  

Fuzzy...or Mr. Dunlop :-)

You have a good point about the Steelers drawing big crowds on Sundays.  I just figured more things in town would be open on Saturdays than Sundays and Pitt would have more competition in terms of things to do.

As for Pryor, I always heard he had originally committed to Pitt, but backed out after he was told he couldn't play both football and basketball.  Regardless, Pitt doesn't just get PSU's "leftovers" or "academic charity cases."  Wanny has improved the recruiting tremendously since he's been at Pitt, and it's no longer just a place for players to go when PSU turns them down (and if you think about it, Ohio State seems to be kicking both their tails in recruiting in this area).

And finally, so what if Pitt "brings nothing to the table"?  I don't want them to play for the TV ratings or the revenue or anything like that.  They're the two major programs in the state, they each have a long and storied history, especially against each other, and they should be playing each other every year.

@Fuzzy -

It is harder for Pitt to fill the stadium mostly because of the Steelers. To put it simply, many who would buy tickets to Pitt are already Steelers season ticket holders, and although it might be fun, I doubt many folks have time to be both. This happens in most schools in major metro areas. Look at Temple or Rutgers.

Pitt brings nothing to the table as far as attendance at PSU football games. That point is not questioned. It is, I think, the fans who get the short end of the stick. PSU fans, IMO, began getting dis-interested in the rivalry because it was boring for a long time. Pitt improved under Harris, which culminated in that 12-0 win. I remember arguing with friends about the rivalry and saying that is sad that they will not play anymore despite it being a competitive game again.  As a PSU fan, it's easy to root for PSU against Michigan, Michigan State, and the rest of the Big 10 simply because I root for them and love them anyway. BUT... I haven't developed the HATE for them that once existed in me for Pitt.

Brownstone also got this point wrong too. It's not because there's better things to do this day, but because many are already committed to Sunday. Teams like PSU, Florida, Ohio State, LSU, USC don't have to compete with a pro team for the entertainment dollar in their market.

For the record, anyone posting to this blog basically vindicates those wanting the rivalry to return. I love this topic. The hate obviously is still there under rug, it just needs to be dusted off!

Anyone want to talk about wrestling or women's volleyball too since we're turning a bit away from football?

As a Pitt grad, who's dad is Pitt a grad and who's sister and Mother are PSU grads....you're damn right I'd like to see them play!  Plus .... living in CA there is STILL a rivalry between ex-pat Pitt alumni and PSU alumni here!  JoePa is a cantankerous, insecure old fool.  He'll coach until he gives up the ghost....and this Rutgers deal smacks of his old, ghost-riddled, self righteous mind up to it's self indulgent tricks again!  

Penn State Sucks

Brownstone and Gregenstein,

So you're telling me that there are no Pitt/Steelers fans who can't get tickets to Steeler games (therefore leaving them with the time and money to attend Pitt games)?  I don't buy that for a second.  The Steelers have a long waiting list for season tickets.  In fact, the waiting list is estimated at 40,000 people, roughly twice the number of people who attend Pitt games.  I recognize that PSU football has the built in advantage of being religion on Fall Saturdays, but the reason that Pitt can't replicate that does not rest solely with the Steelers.  Pitt has been bad and played unattractive games (UConn, Cincinnati, S. Florida) for a long time.  Pitt has been to two BCS bowl games since 1980 (none after 1983); PSU has played in 10 ... these are not equal programs despite what delusional Pitt fans might think.

Finally, though I live in Pittsburgh now I have lived elsewhere, even during the Pitt-PSU era, and nobody puts that rivalry on the same level as:  Army-Navy, Alabama-Auburn or Michigan-OSU.  It's more live UVA-VaTech.  Further, nobody living east of Johnstown cares if Pitt plays PSU, least of all PSU fans.

Blame Paterno if you will, but I thank him.  Giving Pitt this gift would only weaken the PSU brand and gain him nothing.

Finally someone in the Fawning Pgh Media calls out Joe on his ridiculous stance on Pitt/PSU.  It is a Tragedy and a Shame that one bitter man is stopping the Greatest Rivalry in the history of Eastern sports.  Polish it up any way you want but Joe, and no one else , is blocking the re-instatement of this storied Rivalry.  Grow up, Joe!

"Anyone want to talk about wrestling or women's volleyball too since we're turning a bit away from football? Or should we stick with that choke in the Elite 8 game vs. Villanova?"

Ha, lets talk about that choke against Iowa.  You know Iowa, the team that Pitt beat, lol!!

Gergenstein,

At least Pitt scored in the Villanova game.  Sure, not when it counted, but they scored.

Oregon State 3; Pitt - 0

"Finally, though I live in Pittsburgh now I have lived elsewhere, even during the Pitt-PSU era, and nobody puts that rivalry on the same level as:  Army-Navy, Alabama-Auburn or Michigan-OSU.  It's more live UVA-VaTech.  Further, nobody living east of Johnstown cares if Pitt plays PSU, least of all PSU fans"

Ok, then why are you on here running your yap if you don't care!  Also, your missing the point about the Steelers!  The Steelers are the number one team in town!!  In State College the number one team is PSU football.  Do you really believe that you would be able to put 110,000 plus fanies in the seats if you were competing against the Steelers?

I'd rather lose 3 - 0 against Oregon state in a meaningless bowl game, than get blown off the field and completely dominated in the Rose Bowl on National TV!!

USC 38, State Penn 24

Got to love this headline...

"PSU linebacker gets another year of probation"

A real clean program you're running up there at State Penn, lol!!

I care because I don't want this "rivalry" renewed.  It means nothing and buys me, as a PSU fan, nothing.  I'm in my mid-thirties and Pitt means no more to me than old rivalries with Temple, Maryland or WVU.  My only point is that Pitt should not get special treatment because myopic Pitt fans think it should.

As for getting 110,000 fans, why not?  Michigan gets about that many and Ann Arbor is less than an hour from Detroit (insert Lions joke).  If Pitt actually won games, they might even get a fan or two.

Oooo...that Iowa game was painful to watch. Probably as painful as a Pitt fan watching Bowling Green.

I think Pitt would probably draw better without the Steelers in town, yes. I add to this that I'm NOT advocating for the Steelers to leave. I cheer them every Sunday. If Pitt could go 11-1 or 10-2 once every 4 or 5 years, it would do wonders for attendance against the cupcake teams where they usually lag. Notre Dame and WVU games are well attended. That said, until Pitt can go 10-2 twice a decade, PSU probably has a better program going.

I'll throw this out there. Growing up in the 80's, it seemed every year PSU went 8-3 or better, including the 2 titles. Pretty much every year was a top 15 year. I'm not looking at stats right now so bear with me. They haven't been in the top 15 as consistently since they joined the Big 10. Perhaps it could be argued playing against Pitt made people want to come to Happy Valley? Or perhaps playing in a heated rivalry made people want to go to both schools? I know Pitt/WVU is called the Backyard Brawl, but it's not in the same league as Pitt/PSU, so that to me doesn't qualify as "heated".

SteelFan43,

Last comment for you, I promise:

"I'd rather lose 3 - 0 against Oregon state in a meaningless bowl game, than get blown off the field and completely dominated in the Rose Bowl on National TV!!"

I feel like most Pitt fans would agree with that statement and that is why they are satisfied with going to meaningless bowl games every three or four years.  It's low expectations that got you to be a Pitt fan and low expectations that keep you a Pitt fan.  Is Pitt's mantra:  if you don't strive, then you can never fail?  (except of course when they lose the meaningless bowl game anyway)

I think it is hilarious that a lot of the Pitt fans on here try to say that the reason people don't go to Pitt games is because there is SO MUCH to do in the city.  Like all of the Pitt fans must be at the museums or library every Saturday afternoon.  The bottom line is Western PA is crazy about football, people pack HS stadiums on Friday nights, they pack Heinz Field on Sunday afternoons, but don't have any interest in watching the inferior product that is on display 6-7 Saturday afternoons each fall.

I also find it interesting that people on here are trying to comeback by bringing up basketball.  I enjoy basketball as much as anyone else, but there isn't one true Pitt fan out there that wouldn't much rather be an elite program in football than basketball anyday.  Pitt fans are still trying to hang on to the glory days from 30 years ago when they were relevant, but the bottom line is that they haven't been an elite program in decades.

And for the person who made fun of PSU's non-conference schedule, just remember your making fun of Syracuse as well, one of the quality teams from the Big Least.

Pitt grad here and I loved that rivalry when I was at Pitt in the late 1970s: even and great teams between the two.  It's too bad that they don't play yearly.

I now live in a state with two big time (neither with the history of Pitt or Penn State) college football teams: Clemson and South Carolina (okay we Clemson people don't think SC is big time, but that's another story).  The weekend they play is probably the height of the calendar here.  Pitt/PSU can't be like because of the professional sports in PA, but it could be a lot better than it is.  Sad that it has gotten personal. Where are the presidents of these universities?  In many states, the  legislators would demand that this game be played yearly.  

Anyway, Pitt still gets to play WVU.  PSU doesn't have a real rivalry game.          

I was at the College Football Hall of Fame in South Bend a couple of years ago (it wasn't worth going to BTW), but they had a display up about the Top 10 College Football Rivalries - listing the history of the series, and the score of the game played that year.  It was a shame that the only one of that Top 10 to not be played was Pitt-PSU.  I think the fact that there is so much antimosity between the fans just on here would make a game in the future between the two definitely something to look forward to.  How about this...since the Rose Bowl is the National Championship this year, let's have both teams win their conferences and they can play in a BCS bowl (since PSU isn't tied to the Rose Bowl).  That would be much better than bringing up the same arguments year after year.

NOW Bob...It wouldn't be a rivalry if there wasn't a bit of absurd belittling, would it....

AND...You wrote the lead here pointing out that the outstanding coach from State College had overlooked reinstating the Pennsylvania Classic in favor of the boys from New Brunswick....

I'll crawl back under me rock now.... :)

"I care because I don't want this "rivalry" renewed.  It means nothing and buys me, as a PSU fan, nothing.  I'm in my mid-thirties and Pitt means no more to me than old rivalries with Temple, Maryland or WVU.  My only point is that Pitt should not get special treatment because myopic Pitt fans think it should."

Once again, if you don't care then why are you on here running your yap?

Special treatment?  What special treatment?  I sure don't see anyone from Pitt calling up PSU begging them for a home & home, because we need the revenue.  Also, please spare me the "you need us more than we need you" bull.  If you don't want to play us anymore that's your business.  We'll just go find someone else, like Notre Dame, same results less a-holes!    

Same old arguments by both sides over the past several years.

However, the one-and-one series with Rutgers does contradict virutally EVERYTHING that PSU admin and its followers has argued in this past decade.  

-- PSU admin states that they cannot afford a one-and-one preaseason arrangement because the fb team funds all of their other athletic programs.

-- upon closing the deal with Rutgers, PSU AD Curley was hap to renew the rivalry.  Note that this rivalry hasn't been played since 1995 and totals 24 games.  PSU has each played Temple, Maryland, WVU and Syracuse substantially more than 24 times ... but their longest series is with Pitt at 96 games (but of course, the area PSU followers say Pitt is not a rival!)

The fact is (as Mundyscorner listed), any college fb series of 96 games is not to be discounted .. especially when the team with the more wins (PSU) has won only slightly more than 50% of the time.  By all standards but local PSU fans, it is a storied series.

If PSU doesn't want to play Pitt -- fine!! .... jst QUIT WITH THE CRAP!!

"I feel like most Pitt fans would agree with that statement and that is why they are satisfied with going to meaningless bowl games every three or four years.  It's low expectations that got you to be a Pitt fan and low expectations that keep you a Pitt fan.  Is Pitt's mantra:  if you don't strive, then you can never fail?  (except of course when they lose the meaningless bowl game anyway)"

That's a ridiculus statement to make and shows me that you have no idea what you're talking about.  This is Pittsburgh, where anything less than a championship is considered a failure!  Get a clue!!

You're right Bob, this is starting to get ugly!  I'm going to bow out now too (:

Everyone can say what they want about the fact that these two great universities are not playing.  It doesn't matter why or who might be to blame, the bottom line is that the cold war needs to end.  The excuses need to stop.

Miami and Florida are in different conferences with difficult schedules, but seem to find a way to play.  Iowa and Iowa State play every year.  Georgia and Georgia Tech play every year.  South Carolina and Clemson play every year.  I am sure Florida, Georgia, Clemson, and Iowa could come up with the same arguement about additional revenue....but they play anyway.  Notre Dame could use the same excuse with Pitt, but they still seem to play them six or seven times per decade.

The attendance issue has impacted virtually every major college football team located in an NFL football town at one time or another.  Name any other major college team with 3 other extremely successful football programs in their back yard and an NFL team that competes for titles year in and year out.  Oh, and let's not forget the Notre Dame fans in the region.  When you consider what they compete against on an annual basis in a stadium that is not on their campus, they do about as well as they can.  BTW, if the attendance in Pittsburgh is so bad, then all the Penn State fans who can't get into Beaver Stadium should be jumping up and down for an opportunity to see their team.

So instead of coming up with reason why not to play,  let's look at ways to play.  Even if you consider Penn State's position that they need additional revenue by getting the extra home games, they could accomplish this by playing Pitt 6-8 times per decade and take on the Coastal Carolinas of the world on the other years.

The benefits of playing far outweigh any negatives.  Any honest fan regardless of allegiance wants this game.  Penn State no longer has a major rivalry.  They end the season with Michigan State for goodness sakes.  They have had over ten years to make it a rivalry game and all the Penn State fans I speak with are only concerned with Ohio State and Michigan.  Those games are usually played in the middle of the season and the records in those games are a little lopsided the wrong way.

Playing Pitt at the end of the season makes all the sense in the world for both schools.  Common guys, let by-gones be by-gones.

BTW, congrats to Penn State on winning the NIT.  At the same time trying to compare their basketball program and Pitt's at this time and place is almost laughable.

Fuzzy stated something that I have felt for years ... the hypocrisy of the local PSU fans.  If they really don't care about Pitt or its followers, why do they continually go out of their way to make this point??

Whether it's this blog which so far has 40 comments, or the numerous letters to the sports editor over the past decade, they have never been shy about making this point .... apathy, my butt!! (see, I cleaned it up)

The Commonwealth provides a lot of funds to these schools. I know many will argue it ought to stay out of such matters, but when the principals are stuck in a sandbox then I say they can dictate some.

The Commonwealth ought to require home-and- home series among Pitt, Penn State and, yes, Temple.

If Penn State can play a Big East team then why not Pitt?   And Penn State has played Temple for a few seasons now already.  Pitt plays MAC team regularly so why not Temple?  

And once the football series are established all three ought to play in basketball too.

As a Pitt fan,  I grew enjoying the PSU-Pitt rivalry. I really feel that it is a shame that the game is not played anymore. Maybe it was not OSU vs. Michigan, but I think that any unbiased observer would agree that the rivalry had a national profile and was not merely an interest of Western Pennsylvanians

It's been mentioned already, but I think it bears repeating.   If PSU fans are so over the rivalry, then why does the first comment on the board come from an obvious PSU fan who writes a THESIS about why PSU fans don't care about Pitt. I have heard this same argument from a personality on ESPN Radio recently. It's as if PSU fans are reading from a script sometimes.

Isn't it interesting that there are such heated comments from fans who don't consider Pitt/Penn State a rivalry.  To all you guys that grew up in the 80's and didn't have the pleasure of watching the games in the 70's and early 80's, let me tell you the rivalry was real and the games meant everything to both schools.  

Sure Penn State is the better program and has been for a long time, but every rivalry has one team that tends to dominate over periods of time.   Penn State can say they don't need Pitt, and maybe they don't, but I bet every fan of both schools along with every fan of college football in the northeast would be happier if Penn State was playing Pitt and West Virginia on at least a regular basis.

In my opinion Penn State would be better off to move to the Big East.  They had a great year last year, but they aren't near the power house year in year out that they were before.  They would be the dominant team in football in the Big East and it would give their basketball program a chance to be competitive more than once every 5-10 years.  

And if the Big East football situation doesn't have some relevance, where is Miami these days.  Did moving to the ACC help Va Tech and BC?  Ask Oklahoma if Big East football is irrelevant.    

I know it will never happen, but it sure would be a lot of fun to see Penn State, Pitt, WVU, and Syracuse battling again.

I went to both schools and cheer for both, which I know many regard as perverse. I think it is disgusting they no longer play, and I truly believe our governor should force it to happen.

Joe Paterno did not talk to a Pennsylvania state rep. He pushes away the president and the athletic director. He goes on Outside the Lines and is seething with anger over facts. He yells at reporters. He has traffic accidents and blames the other driver.

With Joe's scheduling you are never going to win another national championship. Temple? A rival?

It's funny how small the world is: We beat Iowa and the mighty Nits lose to Iowa and blow their shot (and it was a long-shot) of playing in the BCS game. Maybe God is trying to tell  you something? Oh, and I don't mean paterno.

Yo Bob!  

Told you so.  

"But he hit me first."

"Yea, who cares that the Paterno has won more games than any coach.  He din't have to play Pitt!"

You bad,Bob. ;-)

Pitt fans complain about Joe wanting 2 out of 3 games in State College but they fail to realize that in the 96 games played in the series 71 have been played in Pittsburgh. Schedule 2 out of 3 in State College till the imbalance is corrected.

Does Rutgers require anyone buying PSU tickets to purchase tickets to 3 other lesser games? If not then you really do not have a point. Pitt could have had a home and home, but they refused to drop the requirement to purchase tickets to their lesser games. Also, you might want to think about who the coach of Rutgers is....you might get your answer why PSU would schedule with them!!

I see it a slightly different way Bob.  Pitt would value the Pitt/Penn State game, should it ever happen, much higher than PSU and would be more ready to play.  PSU has bigger games on a yearly basis, normally at least 2, and from their side the rivalry died years ago.  On the other hand, Penn State would be Pitt's biggest game most likely, the rivlarly still exists more for Pitt than PSU (see these blog comments if you need further proof), and thus Penn State has more to lose by playing Pitt than by avoiding them and playing a team like Rutgers.  They're looking out for their self interest in avoiding the game as much as anything else.

Bob,

Apparently whistle Pig is not familiar with your treatise on the insignificance of the NIT (Not Important Tournament).  Maybe you should re-run it for him.  I think it is very amusing that he would blow the horm for Penn State's winning the NIT (Nobody's Interested Tournament) when the reason they were in it and not the NCAA is because DeChellis wouldn't play anyone of consequence in the pre-conference schedule.

Maybe if he hand't dropped Pitt their RPI would have been good enough to make the NCAA (real) torunament - even though they would had had their heads handed to them by Pitt in the game.

Mr. Big ...indeed I am familiar.  The NIT ain't the NCAA, for sure. No one claimed such.  And of course, anyone/everyone recognizes the flaw in scheduling lightly.  Cost Penn State an otherwise merited NCAA bid. No denying that.  Nor did I make any claim that Penn State would beat Pitt's team this season.  That's where Pitt would probly take 7 of 10.  Maybe.

No, to be sure ... I made only one claim.

National Post-Season Basketball Tournament Championships:

Penn State - 1        

Pitt - 0, none, zilch and counting, chronic stepsister

And another irony?  Penn State's cash flow beat Pitt's as a consequence.  

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand-grenades. No one beyond the die-hards will  remember that Pitt's team came in 8th.

Whistle Pig,

Making it to the Elite 8  is a much more significant accomplishment than winning the NIT (Not Important Tournament).

Penn State would have been lucky to win 1 out of 10 games against Pitt this year. Face reality.

Send me the financial statements that disclose the cash flow - I'm sure you have them. (Right)

Big ...Twas merely a gay guy gone sour who made this year's Miss USA #2 memorable, despite the good looks and dimensions to dream and drool about ... Otherwise she'd be just like #8 in the '09 NCAAs.  Nice but of no import or memorability.

Only Pittcrew and Smizik bloggers will ever remember ... "Yea, but we came in 8th. And we believe in traditional one guy-one gal marriages."

Conversely, Penn State will have forever and a day, being the winner of one of the nation's 2 post-season basketball tournaments, a trophy in its already stacked case and a banner swinging from its rafters.

All that will be remembered is Penn State won ...#1, NIT.

None aside from the players and coach will remember if Pitt was 8th or 18th or 28th.  Except when they wanna play ... "Yea, but we coulda, woulda, shouda won."  And while they'd conveniently forget the obvious teams better, the message may remain.  The bridesmaid. In NCAA hoops. In Pitt-Penn State competitons.

That's the problem in wanting to be something we're not instead of valuing that which we are.

Whistle Pig,

What a bunch of confusing drivel in your last posting.

Yes, Penn State won the NIT (Nationally Insignificant Tournament) - what an accomplishment to be the best of the also-rans.  It's a tournament run only for money - not a true championship. But be happy that Penn State won it in its record-smashing basketeball season with a record number of wins - 27.  WOW!  That is about what Pitt has been averaging the last 8 years.

I didn't see the cash flow statements so I guess you misplaced them.  I think the cash flow would come from attendance so I looked it up.  Penn State averaged 8020 per home game - 53% of capacity.  That is impressive.  The building was over half full!

Pitt averaged 11,200 per home game or 90% of capacity.  I wonder which generated more cash?  As if anyone really cares.

To show the true significance of the NIT (Nobody's Interested Tournament), Penn State drew an average of 6,100 fans for its two home games in the tournament.  Two thousand less than the average for the regular season.  What a show of interest!!!   I rest my case.

Uh, the only people who will remember that PSU won the NIT will be the PSU fans.  Nobody else cares.  And even those fans are probably only hoping that this is a springboard for better days ahead...such as making the NCAA Tournament and maybe making it to the Sweet 16, or even the Elite 8...

W-Pig - your arguments are usually pretty sound logically (even if many people either disagree with or just don't like your conclusions), but the idea that PSU winning the NIT is more significant than a team (Pitt or anyone else) making the 4th round of the NCAA's seems a real stretch to me.  It does not diminish PSU's accomplishment to recognize that making the final 8 in the NCAA is better for a program than winning the NIT.

The real problem with the Pitt/Penn State rivalry -- I grew up a State fan but went to Pitt -- is that in practice it's always been limited to football, unlike other major college rivalries where even a game of tiddlywinks would draw a crowd.  I'm a longtime Pitt men's basketball season ticket holder, and that rivalry never carried over to hoops in part because few good basketball players in the Pittsburgh region, let alone in Pennsylvania, have demonstrated any interest in going to Happy Valley (and of course Pitt's biggest basketball rival has always been Duquesne).  And in fact, that's really what the flap is about -- Paterno wanted to join the Big East Conference to attract decent players to improve the PSU hoops program but was rejected because, frankly, it's an afterthought with little tradition to speak of.  (Pitt got in because it's in a major television market, which fit the Big East culture at the time.)

The irony is that even since it joined the Big Ten the PSU men's hoops program has not been consistently good and still has problems drawing players -- and crowds.  I went to the Pitt/Penn State game in the Jordan Center in 2004 and, even though I detected a healthy "hate" among the students, there were still plenty of empty seats.

Pitt's move to the Big East has served them extremely well, and will be even more important into the future as high schools in Pennsylvania (and the Northeast and Midwest in general) continue to have falling enrollments.  Basketball programs are exponentially cheaper to operate and rely on far fewer players. They're also benefited by a national, year-round AAU circuit, which creates a national recruiting market.  Football requires armies of top-tier players to compete and has no such structure, nor is the sport conducive to one.  It's recruiting is almost exclusively regional.

As much as I love football, it's in decline in Pennsylvania at the high-school level.  With that, so too is the importance of Tom Bradley's recruiting prowess.  Welcome to mediocrity Nitters.  Sure you've been pretty good every third year recently.  But those of us who are old enough know better.  We remember when no Joe Paterno team would have lost 8-straight to an opponent; and when they and the teams they played would actually win (and not get pasted) annually in important bowl games.  Mediocrity builds character, you'll see.  We Pitt fans have been learning to enjoy it for the better part of 30 years.  At least we have basketball.  

Penn State can enjoy New Jersey as a recruiting ground.  It's cup runneth-over with Blue-chip talent.  Probably going to have to pilfer some out of ACC country too though.  

Congrats on winning the NIT too, in the "home of Big East Basketball" no less.  However I think a sensible argument could be made that winning ANY major and several of the mid-major conference tournament (which do occur in the post-season) is more difficult.  Don't argue basketball here.

It will always be remembered as Pitt 12 - Lions 0.

My other favorite score was Oregon State 3 - Pitt 0.

I hope the door hit your @$$, Cavanaugh. :)

Ha!  Cav is definitely better suited for the pro game vs. college.  Gotta love him as player and a Pitt guy though.  

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